Victor Wooten: There are 30 keys

[Pings Bass]

Well that clears up everything. NOT.

TL;DR: as a musician and/or composer, don't over-think theory.

Duke Ellington (no slouch in the theory department, that's for sure) said it better than me: "There are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind. The only yardstick by which the result should be judged is simply that of how it sounds. If it sounds good it's successful; if it doesn't it has failed."

Point being that if you're diving so deeply into the weeds of theory that you're quibbling about whether to count Db and C# as different keys on an equal-temperament instrument in an attempt to make better sounding music, you're doing it wrong. If you're studying theory to understand why music that sounds good sounds good, now you're on the right track, and that theory will serve you well as a writer and a player.

I'm not saying theory is over-rated. It's critical for composers and improvisers to have working knowledge of melody, counterpoint and harmony. But ultimately what you play or write just has to sound good, and you don't have to know any theory to know if you've got that.

 

[legalbass]

doing yoga with your bass

I can't tell if you're making that part up or not.

 

[HelpImaRock]

Responses like this are lacking any actual real-world context. If you are playing in a pit you can't just "Play any note over any chord" unless you want that to be your first and last gig. And if you are handed a stack of sheet music by, say, Chick Corea, he is going to expect you to know how to read it, understand it, and discuss it in accurate terms. Vic used that specific example once in a clinic (I'm paraphrasing): "You might not think there's a difference between C# and Db, but Chick does. And he won't call you out on it, but he'll remember you didn't know, and next time he'll hire somebody who does."

If Zombie Chick Corea hands me anything, I'm running the other direction.

 

[sears]

on a fretless instrument those enharmonic notes can be a little different

 

[Pings Bass]

Responses like this are lacking any actual real-world context. If you are playing in a pit you can't just "Play any note over any chord" unless you want that to be your first and last gig.

Of course not, if you're on a reading job, your job is to read and play the notes on the page. If that means you have to practice Db/C# with both spellings, by all means, practice that scale with both spellings. Learn all your double sharps and flats. My "any note over any chord" comment is in regards to composing and improvising, and I stand by it. You can study theory to guide your note choice, use your ear, or, preferably, use both. But when it comes down to it, the ear always wins.

 

[dkelley]

He's correct. The only time it's important is if you are writing mathematically perfect music.

Nearly all of us don't do that. I've only ever seen it in classical music, and it's a royal pain in the butt to sight read. changing keys from an existing defined key signature requires certain rules to be followed to do it right. The end result to the performer is the same, and it sucks reading key signatures with double flats or double sharps, but it is mathematically correct.

I do agree though, for nearly all non-academic or non classical music situations, it is pedantic and impractical to do that.

I had to do all of that when I got my music degrees.

 

[Mechanical]

Where's Jeff Berlin when you need him?

 

[MultiScaleMale]

I can't tell if you're making that part up or not.

partially. There was an hour of stretching exercises you can do before a performance.

 

[Lackey]

Wonder how much usable take-home info is learned at one of his Bass/ Nature Camp thingies..... I love the guy but I feel it's easier to hear him play music than speak music.

 

[OldShark]

Modern Double French horns have a switch that changes them from Bb to F, but I believe they read in F.

I played a double French horn in my youth and can confirm that for orchestras, though sometimes they are written in Bb, too. In contrast, in typical brass bands, they are written in Eb, so you need to learn to transpose early.

 

[JonathanPDX]

Wonder how much usable take-home info is learned at one of his Bass/ Nature Camp thingies..... I love the guy but I feel it's easier to hear him play music than speak music.

You take home as much as you want to get out of it. I'm biased, I've attended 4 camps as a student and 2 as an instructor.

Personally, I think if you want to learn things like "how do I slap the bass" or "What are the notes in A major" you can find those answers many places and from many people. You don't have to go out to a camp to pursue those answers, and, while you can find them there, in my opinion you're missing out on the bigger picture.

The value from sitting down with guys like Vic, Steve Bailey, Chuck Rainey, Adam Nitti, etc, is about approach, attitude, experience, and their unique insight into music, the bass, and their careers as musicians. If you can spend an hour with Chuck Rainey and NOT find something useful to take home, that's on you, not him.

Vic asks a lot of questions, like the one discussed here. He also puts it into context, such as classical or serious jazz reading gigs where stuff that seems unimportant to 99% of us is literally the difference between getting hired and getting fired. Just because it doesn't apply to your gig doesn't mean it's not worth knowing.

 

[dkelley]

Where's Jeff Berlin when you need him?

I can ask him, if you really want to know his thoughts on this...

 

[Tupac]

If you are playing a tune in F# major, and at some point the tune modulates to the dominant (a very common modulation), you will be in C# major (not Db major). This is so because you modulate by sharping one single note: B ---> B#.
But if are playing a tune in Ab major, wich at some point modulates to the subdominant (another very common modulation), you will be Db major (not C# major). You modulate by flatting one single note: G ---> Gb.

Of course, if you are playing a piece that is entirely in Db major, you can equally write it the enharmonic key of C#: it is the same piece. That is why Bach has 24 preludes and fugues in each of the 2 books of the WTC (not 30). Same for Chopin's 24 preludes which cover all 24 tonalities. It is actually the point of equal temperament that Bach wanted to demonstrate with WTC: in equal temperament, C# and Db sound exactly the same, i.e. they are enharmonic. With non equal temperament, C# major and Db major would not sound the same, and it would not be possible to go smoothly around the circle of 5ths, so that modulations would be awkward or impossible.

In the WTC, one may wonder why Bach choses to write in C# major (7 sharps) instead of the simpler Db major (only 5 flats). I suspect it is because he uses the same key for both major and minor. Since there is a key of C# minor (4 sharps) and no key of Db minor (that would require double flats in the key signature), he writes in C# rather than Db major.

Wictor Wooten knows all of this, and his point is that one needs to be equally fluent with C# major and Db major, because there are contexts where they are not harmonically equivalent.

If your argument is "It's worth learning to play in all enharmonic keys separately due to modulations that can land you in 6 or 7 sharps/flats" than why stop at 7 sharps/flats (and consequently 30 keys)? Aren't there cases of modulating even higher than 7 sharps/flats? Heck, why not go up to 10 sharps/flats?

It seems to me if you allow double counting of enharmonic keys due to modulation, then by the same argument, you must count infinite sharps/flats...

 

[Mechanical]

I can ask him, if you really want to know his thoughts on this...

I'm pretty sure I know them.
He told me to practice in all 12 keys for the Bb7 Walking Blues sheet music he sent me.

 

[brianrost]

I'm pretty sure I know them.
He told me to practice in all 12 keys for the Bb7 Walking Blues sheet music he sent me.

The idea of practicing across all 12 keys is in the context of a piece of music that is primarily major or primarily minor.

For example, if I'm working on the modes of the melodic minor scale, I don't need to work through any major keys.

 

[Ekulati]

Technically defensible math. Ridiculous pedagogy.

Best answer. In pop/rock/jazz/folk/blues/funk/hiphop/country/Latin/metal/post metal/hardcore/post hardcore/post post hardcore or any other freaking genre any of us will encounter, none of that matters. MAYBE in certain types of classical music, really avant garde stuff.

Must've been a slow you tube day...

 

[JonathanPDX]

Best answer. In pop/rock/jazz/folk/blues/funk/hiphop/country/Latin/metal/post metal/hardcore/post hardcore/post post hardcore or any other freaking genre any of us will encounter, none of that matters. MAYBE in certain types of classical music, really avant garde stuff.

Must've been a slow you tube day...

You don't think jazz musicians pay attention to key signatures? Did you miss the part where Vic has played with Chick Corea, Mike Stern, and other very heavy jazz cats? Those are pure reading gigs, and you better expect them to throw some gnarly stuff your way.

 

[bassbrad]

B#
Cb
E#
Fb
Sure those are real keys

 

[Wasnex]

If your argument is "It's worth learning to play in all enharmonic keys separately due to modulations that can land you in 6 or 7 sharps/flats" than why stop at 7 sharps/flats (and consequently 30 keys)? Aren't there cases of modulating even higher than 7 sharps/flats? Heck, why not go up to 10 sharps/flats?

It seems to me if you allow double counting of enharmonic keys due to modulation, then by the same argument, you must count infinite sharps/flats...

Yes, technically if you include theoretical keys, the circle of 5ths continues in both directions infinitely.

AFAIK formal music schools cover the concept of theoretical keys in theory 101, but we are taught to generally constrain ourselves to the 30 "conventional" keys shown below. If you are asked to answer a question about key centers and respond with a theoretical key, your answer will probably be marked incorrect. It's not that the theoretical key is technically wrong, but it's not the answer we are generally taught to use. And yes, some of the questions may be designed to trick you into answering with a theoretical key.

The demarcation of the limit is pretty obvious and logical: Key signatures can include up to 7 flats or sharps, but not double flats or double sharps. However, while working in minor keys it's not unusual to deal with double sharps, even though they are not part of the key signature. I would probably argue that they are diatonic to the key though. (I may be wrong, but that is how I think of it).

There are of course examples where composers break the rules. Theoretical key - Wikipedia

As I mentioned earlier, string players tend to work in sharp keys while brass and woodwind players tend to work in flat keys. No one typically works in theoretical keys unless the composer/arranger is either ignorant or trying to be cutesy or experimental. IMHO reading musicians should strive to maintain basic competence in all 30 "conventional" major/minor keys. However, I am not saying it's reasonable or even sensible to strive for equal competence in all keys.

It's up to you decide what you do. Feel free to practice theoretical keys if you want, but IMHO it's a waste of time.

 

[Chrisk-K]

Victor is correct. F# major is different from Gb major. The two keys actually sound different as well. Those who took classical piano lessons can easily tell.