Well I just re-read my post on the internet so now we're both right!
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Victor Wooten: There are 30 keys
- Thread starter Tupac
- Start date
Well I just re-read my post on the internet so now we're both right!
If you are a composer, the difference between the keys of F# and Gb matters sometimes in relation to other keys. If you are a performer, the difference only matters when you are reading a score, not when you are playing, assuming equal temperament.
There must be a joke in here somewhere. Something along the lines of "Q: When is a Tritone not a Tritone? A: When it's a Flat Five."
I'll see myself out.
I'll see myself out.
@Wasnex once politely corrected me when I once said something similar to this. And as he is substantially more experience and knowledgeable on these topics than me, I certainly defer. Even though I tried my best to explain my reasoning.
His response and @grovedoctors response has resonated with me deeply since. And they might correct me if I am wrong, but their responses were essentially, that such overly simplified reasoning might be technically correct, it is NOT HELPFUL.
As the purpose of studying and learning this stuff is to understand and know which notes are dissonant and consonant in different harmonic contexts so that we can draw on that knowledge when when we are playing.
If you're playing with guitars, you'll rarely see an Ab or a Db, whatever. The flats affect our open strings so we prefer sharps over flats most of the time. If you play with keys or winds, they prefer flats over sharps. Not sure about orchestras, they're mostly overschooled pros that make things more complicated some times so they don't get bored to death. (They're that good.)
That's some deep cut music theory humor there.
(Un)fortunately that's all I've got, so not enough for a stand-up routine, or even a turn at a club - unless they need the place cleared at closing time.
Again, let's put aside the topic of different types of temperament. Once you go down that path you quickly get lost in the forest of quarter-tones, microtonalism, Western vs. non-Western scales, etc. We make the simplifying assumption that there are only the same 12 notes in each octave no matter the key and that every octave is in exact half/double relation to every other octave. As long as we are only concerned with "what" and not with "why", it doesn't matter whether a note is spelled B or Cb or A double-sharp. As for individual notes, the same is true for keys.
I have seen a Thelonious Monk tune published recently without a key signature. Even though the tune does have a predominant tonal center (not C major or A minor) and ends on the root of that key, the chromaticism is so extensive that for performance purposes it is more useful to write it as if it were in C major, thus avoiding double sharps or double flats or Cb, B#, Fb or E#. This is for the convenience of the performer, to make reading simpler. It is not "theoretically" correct, but it is a practical choice.
I have seen a Thelonious Monk tune published recently without a key signature. Even though the tune does have a predominant tonal center (not C major or A minor) and ends on the root of that key, the chromaticism is so extensive that for performance purposes it is more useful to write it as if it were in C major, thus avoiding double sharps or double flats or Cb, B#, Fb or E#. This is for the convenience of the performer, to make reading simpler. It is not "theoretically" correct, but it is a practical choice.
Some need 30, this guy needs one:
It is worth watching; humbling, well explained and just beautiful.
It is worth watching; humbling, well explained and just beautiful.
All the "omnibooks" do that. I have those for Miles, Coltrane, and Bird. And it drives me insane that nearly all of it is notated without appropriate key signatures. Each individual (altered) note is notated with recurring sharps and flats over a C major signature. What a cop out! But it keeps you on your toes...
But you do see far too many A# or D# where Bb or Eb is much easier to process in real time. Especially if they have cribbed charts from Ultimate Guitar...
Responses like this are lacking any actual real-world context. If you are playing in a pit you can't just "Play any note over any chord" unless you want that to be your first and last gig. And if you are handed a stack of sheet music by, say, Chick Corea, he is going to expect you to know how to read it, understand it, and discuss it in accurate terms. Vic used that specific example once in a clinic (I'm paraphrasing): "You might not think there's a difference between C# and Db, but Chick does. And he won't call you out on it, but he'll remember you didn't know, and next time he'll hire somebody who does."
this is not "vics take," its correct
why enharmonic keys exist is another topic - but they do, and they are most certainly justified.
There is definitely music where I would agree there really is no key center as we normally think of it, but the vast majority of music that I have played has very clear key centers. So in addition to producing consonance or dissonance, each note should be thought of as inside or outside (the key). If a song has key centers, it takes some degree of skill and training to play outside of the changes without sounding incompetent. If you just randomly play notes, it might sound okay for half a bar or so (if you get lucky), but not much longer.
My perception is most people generally learn the rules first, and then they learn to break the rules, providing they ever get that far.
I haven't really studied the mechanisms for playing outside the changes very much, but there are lots of books that cover this subject. One common approach uses pentatonic scales.
In my experience reading sheet music, both in the "classical" sense and regular pop music, the double-flat and double-sharp thing is mostly for convenience, and a sort of psychological thing: if you are playing a descending line, you tend to use flats (or naturals), whereas if you are ascending, you use sharps (or naturals). It's supposed to give you a sense of movement in the right direction, so to speak.
For instance, if you are playing a walking bass line over blues changes in the key of F, where you have an F7 chord for the first bar, a Bb7 chord for the second, and then back to F7 on bar 3, this is what I would typically see:
Chords: F7 - - - Bb7 - - - F7
Bassline: F G G# A Bb A Ab G F
I’ve said it before on here and I’ll say it again: I have literally seen someone replaced at the interval during a show. That’s how little the pit world doesn’t mess around. It’s turn up, shut up and put up.
Something you may not be considering is not all instruments play in concert C. Many brass and woodwind instruments are transposing, so they will be reading in a different key than the string players. For example there are Eb, and Bb clarinets. The Bb will need to play D to produce concert C. The Eb clarinet is higher pitched than Bb clarinet and will need to play an A to produce concert C.
Some instruments are in F as well. Modern Double French horns have a switch that changes them from Bb to F, but I believe they read in F.
Actually the bass is a transposing instrument too, but since the notes are off by one octave, it has no impact on the written key signature.
In my experience strings tend to be more comfortable in sharp keys and brass and woodwinds tend to be more comfortable in flat keys. I played professionally in concert bands, and over time I became more comfortable playing in flat keys. In fact, there was one year where we played a lot of pieces in Gb Maj.
I can assure you that the brain processes Gb and F# different. If you master a technical piece in Gb and then try to read it in F# you are highly likely to stumble. When I was presented a piece in F# it was challenging for me to read it, because I was not longer really proficient in that key...but Gb was not a problem.
IMHO, as a reading professional musician you need to be prepared to think in all 30 keys. If you play jazz at a high level, you will likely deal with chords that imply double sharps. Also, there are definitely "modern" compositions that go into "theoretical" key signatures.
Some instruments are in F as well. Modern Double French horns have a switch that changes them from Bb to F, but I believe they read in F.
Actually the bass is a transposing instrument too, but since the notes are off by one octave, it has no impact on the written key signature.
In my experience strings tend to be more comfortable in sharp keys and brass and woodwinds tend to be more comfortable in flat keys. I played professionally in concert bands, and over time I became more comfortable playing in flat keys. In fact, there was one year where we played a lot of pieces in Gb Maj.
I can assure you that the brain processes Gb and F# different. If you master a technical piece in Gb and then try to read it in F# you are highly likely to stumble. When I was presented a piece in F# it was challenging for me to read it, because I was not longer really proficient in that key...but Gb was not a problem.
IMHO, as a reading professional musician you need to be prepared to think in all 30 keys. If you play jazz at a high level, you will likely deal with chords that imply double sharps. Also, there are definitely "modern" compositions that go into "theoretical" key signatures.
