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Vintage basses: Exchange Value vs. Use Value

Besides their musical qualities, vintage instruments, not unlike vintage wines, may acquire a collector value just because the hype they generate. Some collectors (I know some of them) simply look at it as a long term financial investment. It is particularly the case for really old Fender, Gibson, Martin. I guess, why not.

In my experience, and as a player, vintage basses are so hit and miss that in no circumstances I would buy anything without trying it first.

Now, unlike electric basses, if you look at old Martin and Gibson acoustic guitars, it is quite unusual to stumble onto a dud. Some of those old acoustic guitar have developed a sound that you could not replicate with a brand new acoustic guitar. I understand why anyone would shell out $30k to buy a pre-WWII Martin.
 
I have owned some vintage clunkers, but because they were notable brands- USA Fenders and one Ric- I was able to break even or, in most cases, make profit. This is why I stick with basses that have resale value. If it's awesome, I keep it, as in my '74 P. If I'm not bonding wth it, there is solace in knowing I will not take a financial beating.
 
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I don’t do vintage. All my Basses are players and if they aren’t usable in a gigging situation I’m not interested. I only buy new. I’m the original owner (except for the vendor). My oldest is a 2017. All Fender all 5 strings. All MIA. ALL 5 of em. 1.8k is the most I’ll pay for an instrument.

I see no use for getting an instrument that demands a price of over 2k. And unless you’re a collector and intend to put it in a glass case vintage is useless.
 
Besides their musical qualities, vintage instruments, not unlike vintage wines, may acquire a collector value just because the hype they generate. Some collectors (I know some of them) simply look at it as a long term financial investment. It is particularly the case for really old Fender, Gibson, Martin. I guess, why not.

In my experience, and as a player, vintage basses are so hit and miss that in no circumstances I would buy anything without trying it first.

Now, unlike electric basses, if you look at old Martin and Gibson acoustic guitars, it is quite unusual to stumble onto a dud. Some of those old acoustic guitar have developed a sound that you could not replicate with a brand new acoustic guitar. I understand why anyone would shell out $30k to buy a pre-WWII Martin.
But now you’re talking acoustic over electronics…and that’s a whole different ball game
 
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In my opinion, the vintage basses are neither better nor worse than modern ones, they are unrepeatable. The instruments are no longer built with the same materials as in the 50's, 60's, 70's... The woods are not the same, the metals and plastics are not the same either,and many can no longer be used because they are banned, such as some woods for example. The result is that they sound different. Supply and demand set the price, the rest is a matter of taste.
 
I build my own basses - starting with Warmoth wood, i do some customizing of bodies, headstocks, etc, I do my own finishes, and the circuits in my basses are...not quite like anything on the market. They still sound like bass guitars, but go a bit outside the "box" of what other folks do in their circuits. I designed pro audio gear for 4 decades, and what I learned there informs my bass circuits.

At this point, I really can't buy basses off the rack. Even a Fodera, I look at a picture of one, and...yeah, I'd swap that, that'd have to go, I'd completely rewire the thing, etc.....
someone posted a few days ago about how they got a bass that seemed to have been electronically stripped and feed directly into the board for recording straight off the pickups. this concept fascinated me as it became about the end user and not the instrument/player as far as sound is concerned. i've posted many a post recently about the vintage topic and whether they were worth it eg quality vs antique value inflation and more often than naught sentimental emotion drove prices up...not the actual "vintage" sound or quality of the instrument. Many have pointed out the poor quality control of the old days vs today's cnc machines, etc.

I think if more players who were in the market would talk to sound engineers first there would be less time spent on outliers and old junk.

can you elaborate on your designs?
 
someone posted a few days ago about how they got a bass that seemed to have been electronically stripped and feed directly into the board for recording straight off the pickups. this concept fascinated me as it became about the end user and not the instrument/player as far as sound is concerned.
Only because you mention this: I have a '95 Trace-Elliot T-Bass (built by Status) that has a preamp with a micro switch that bypasses it and sends both pickup outputs to the jack. As pure as it gets.
 
can you elaborate on your designs?

I have done that quite a number of times on Talkbass - they're designed with a couple repeating themes:

1) Like any good audio design engineer would do things, you make the source low enough in impedance that small changes in the cable aren't going to make significant changes in the sound of the device. Microphones can be used with cables that are hundreds of feet long, and they sound fine, a guitar or bass will, if you change from a 10 to a 20 foot cable, sound quite different. My designs aren't quite as good as microphones, but they're better than the usual stuff by a fair margin.

2) My basses are generally wired with a "mode" switch and a couple of tone circuits. Most basses, you have a switch or two, and some knobs, and ...off you go, figure out how to make a sound you like with these controls. When you switch pickups, the low end may go away, or bet much louder, if you're switching from a neck to a bridge pickup, etc. When I get called to play bass, my job is (in large part) to supply low end - whatever I do, I should be changing the amount of low end, just because I want a different sound. As such, both modes have to be designed to maintain low end - switching pickups won't cut it for that. On most (not all) of my instruments, one mode is neck only, the other involves the bridge pickup in combination with the neck. But at low frequencies, it's the neck pickup only - there's a crossover circuit of some type (there are a few ways to do this) that mixes the pickups in a frequency dependent fashion, and..voila....different sounds, but the low end stays put. The tone circuits have loading capacitors (determines the sound when the tone control is fully "up", a potentiometer (duh), a tone capacitor (often very different values for the different modes), and whatever other parts are need to tweak things (often a damping resistor or two). The net result of all of this is.....

3) When you play a jazz bass, if you want a different sound, you have two volumes and a tone, and all 3 may have to move to dial in what you want - turning 3 knobs all at once, in a precise fashion in a fraction of a second....yeah, that doesn't work too well in a live situation. With my basses, you have two sounds dialed up, and literally at the fliick of a switch, you can go from one dialed in sound to another.

I don't go into publishing schematics on these things, because...even though I've done a few dozen wirings (for myself and others) every time I do one, I learn something, and the clients I have worked with all want something a bit different - I have literally never done 2 basses with the same schematic. My avatar is a bass I wired for a client that has 4 modes (that thing was a beast to wire). The whole point of what I do is not to make a new "standard" bass wiring - it's to do precisely what someone (me or a client) wants their instrument to do. It's a custom wiring shop that goes well outside the box of what most people limit their thinking to.

Leo was...frugal is the nice word. He came up with the simplest circuit that might work, and that folks in general can understand. In the case of the P, it does. In the case of the J, I'd argue it's got a lot of compromises. The circuits I do are more complex (they cost more). I don't use the cheapest parts available - I use parts that will last and work for a very long time (pots that don't get scratchy, capacitors that don't change value over time, etc.)

That's the nutshell version of it. The next level of the deep dive is a book, so I'll stop here.
 
See my post #51. My take on this vintage thing is, I wanted one, I had the scratch to investigate and I actually found one I feel fills that bill. I have a boatload of basses including 5 J's that are all different top tier instruments. None of them or my other basses sound like this '66 J. It has its own character. Is it better or worse than modern basses...I really don't care. I don't have to have a popularity contest. My playing has allowed for an assemblage of really great moderns and this one. I do not for a minute regret getting it and have no plans to flip anytime soon. I will only repeat that I am lucky to have it!
 
Another is the Hohner 185,

Do you mean the Hofner 185?

IIRC the Hohner 185 is an accordion.

Back when they were inexpensive and nobody wanted them I bought a trio of mid '80s Fender MIJ Performer basses just because they were so different and I liked pencil necks and offset contour bodies. They all sounded different. One was minty, another was decent player grade and the third I had to do some work on to get it playable. I think the one that required work to get it playable is the best sounding of the three and its stripped neck feels great so I still have it. The others were traded.

Then there's my early '60s Silvertone Model 1444s by Danelectro I bought cheap at various yard/garage sales decades ago.

My experience is some old stuff works great, some doesn't. I only keep the stuff that works well for me.
 
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See my post #51. My take on this vintage thing is, I wanted one, I had the scratch to investigate and I actually found one I feel fills that bill. I have a boatload of basses including 5 J's that are all different top tier instruments. None of them or my other basses sound like this '66 J. It has its own character. Is it better or worse than modern basses...I really don't care. I don't have to have a popularity contest. My playing has allowed for an assemblage of really great moderns and this one. I do not for a minute regret getting it and have no plans to flip anytime soon. I will only repeat that I am lucky to have it!

Well said!
 
I think it’s also re-living your mid-spent youth for some folks. Once us boomers are gone, that part of the market for old basses will go with us. Will your old Fender continue to appreciate? I wouldn’t bet on it.

If I wanted to play an old looking bass on gigs (I’d have to get past the need for that pesky 5th string), I’d absolutely get a roadworn before I’d pay a premium for an old Fender.
I don’t think that’s true about when we go the vintage market goes. I see lots of younger folks who love vintage stuff.
 
I don’t think that’s true about when we go the vintage market goes. I see lots of younger folks who love vintage stuff.

Yes, there are some younger folks in the market, but I said part of the market (we are the part with the deeper pockets) goes with us - unless enough young folks jump in to replace us (and they have as much money as us old codgers), a lessening of demand by even a little bit can make a huge difference in the prices of things.
 
Case in point my 20yr old daughter fell in love with a 1945 harmony...so I restored it and had it refretted... My 14yr old niece is in love with my 70's fenders and 60's ampegs.

What we have here is a couple young folks that are perfectly happy to play with decent old gear when Dad is footing the bill. Let us know when your 14 year old buys a 70's Fender from her paper route money (Yes, that's unfair - what do 14 year olds do for money nowadays - Youtube proceeds, perhaps?)
 
What we have here is a couple young folks that are perfectly happy to play with decent old gear when Dad is footing the bill. Let us know when your 14 year old buys a 70's Fender from her paper route money (Yes, that's unfair - what do 14 year olds do for money nowadays - Youtube proceeds, perhaps?)
When I was that age I loved antiques also...but maybe it's cause my dad was footing the bill? :) I bought my first vintage bass in my late twenties cause I couldn't afford one on my paper route gig.
 
Case in point my 20yr old daughter fell in love with a 1945 harmony...so I restored it and had it refretted... My 14yr old niece is in love with my 70's fenders and 60's ampegs.
Yeah I’m in that boat too, have vintage stuff that predates my birth by a decade much less my nostalgia influences. I just found what I was looking for in the vintage gear and made sure it was good for what I needed.
 
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Do you mean the Hofner 185?

IIRC the Hohner 185 is an accordion.

Back when they were inexpensive and nobody wanted them I bought a trio of mid '80s Fender MIJ Performer basses just because they were so different and I liked pencil necks and offset contour bodies. They all sounded different. One was minty, another was decent player grade and the third I had to do some work on to get it playable. I think the one that required work to get it playable is the best sounding of the three and its stripped neck feels great so I still have it. The others were traded.

Then there's my early '60s Silvertone Model 1444s by Danelectro I bought cheap at various yard/garage sales decades ago.

My experience is some old stuff works great, some doesn't. I only keep the stuff that works well for me.
Haha I did mean that … grading brain … AND I had a performer … loved neck, tone meh
 

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