Double Bass Voice Leading Practice

[Tom Lane]

I was attempting to show how NOT to start each measure on the Root.
Oy Vey, these Monday (Thursday) Morning Quarterbacks.
Thanks(?)

To paraphrase Mr Loaf, RIP, two out of four ain't bad!

 

[Don Kasper]

two out of four ain't bad!

Only in baseball...
Thx.

 

[lurk]

Why do you need to play the root on beat 1? Why not another close chord tone?

At least the 1st or maybe the 2nd chorus it's good to play a lot of roots on the downbeats cause the guys who hire you hire you because they want you to make them feel comfortable, not creat great melodic lines and, generally speaking, they like roots. After that gets established, go for it. FWIW my favorite walker is PC, and his lines are often beautiful streams of melody without roots on 1. Of course the guys who he was recording with had big open ears and could groove on what he was doing. Many of us don't always play with musicians of that caliber and need to spoon out more roots on 1. Ron Carter is a fabulously successful bassist in every meaning of the word partly because he has made a science of delivering roots in astonishingly beautiful and creative ways, especially on "non standards" where the standard circle of 4ths (as I insist on calling it) formulas of the Great American Songbook which are baked into everyone's ears are not present or skewed.

 

[koricancowboy]

The short answer is because that's what your band expects.

The longer answer is that many musicians listen to the bass line to keep track of where they are in the tune. More skilled musicians and/or musicians who know the tune well, won't be so reliant on the bass line to help them keep their place. As a bassist, you can substitute non-roots for the first beat of a new chord but you may confuse your bandmates. Bassists do that all of the time, and better skilled players expect it, because they don't want you to play too predictably because then they'll be bored. So, it's important to assess how skilled your bandmates are and provide them the support they need and want because our goal should always be to make the best music we can, no?

You can test it out yourself. Either sit at a piano or type in a simple chord progression into iRealPro and play roots on one and then other pitches on beat one. At what point do you no longer recognize the progression? I.e., C^7 Dm7 G7 C^7 play the roots on one: C D G C. Next, substitute: C F# G C.
Then C A B C. C D Db C. G F# F E. They're all plausible possibilities for a bass line but some obscure the progression so much that it's difficult to recognize.

HTHs!

Do you truly believe hitting a 3 or a 5 or even a 7 on the first beat of every bar is going to derail the band? Sounds like the band's problem, not the bassist's. 35+ years later and not hitting roots on every 1 has served me fine. Served Chambers, Mingus, Blanton, LeFaro, and scores of others that are beyond my skills as well but I guess if that's your thing, who am I to judge?

 

[koricancowboy]

At least the 1st or maybe the 2nd chorus it's good to play a lot of roots on the downbeats cause the guys who hire you hire you because they want you to make them feel comfortable, not creat great melodic lines and, generally speaking, they like roots. After that gets established, go for it. FWIW my favorite walker is PC, and his lines are often beautiful streams of melody without roots on 1. Of course the guys who he was recording with had big open ears and could groove on what he was doing. Many of us don't always play with musicians of that caliber and need to spoon out more roots on 1. Ron Carter is a fabulously successful bassist in every meaning of the word partly because he has made a science of delivering roots in astonishingly beautiful and creative ways, especially on "non standards" where the standard circle of 4ths (as I insist on calling it) formulas of the Great American Songbook which are baked into everyone's ears are not present or skewed.

I've been hired plenty and I think folks prefer a smooth baseline rather than some herky jerky line that forces the root on every first beat. Seems counterintuitive to the counterpoint I'm trying to create. I guess I don't ever play stuff like fly me to the moon or any Great American Songbook stuff so there's that. If you're playing old standards with folks that are reading it may be that you're needing to hear one instead of three. I think musicians who listen don't really have that issue

 

[koricancowboy]

My $.03 -
NOT always playing the "1" or Root on beat 1, opens up so many doors to Melodic and Harmonically strong basslines.
Note: If you are playing with musicians who can't hear the bassline below as supporting the specified Harmony, then that is THEIR problem, and it is "Ear-Related"...
Note: You need to know/hear NOT just the "4" chord tones, (many closed doors there...), you also need to hear/know the rest of the consonant scale degrees that support each chord of the Harmony - there are usually 7, minimum. (See the use of "9ths" in the example below.)
IMFO, of course.
View attachment 7332215

This is exactly what I was trying to say earlier in this thread. Why limit yourself to the root on beat one every time?

 

[Wasnex]

Do you truly believe hitting a 3 or a 5 or even a 7 on the first beat of every bar is going to derail the band?

Not if the players are reasonably good.

Seems counterintuitive to the counterpoint I'm trying to create.

Bass has a much stronger responsibility to provide the harmonic foundation than any other instrument.

Walking bass rules as I understand them.

• Beats 1 and 3 get harmonic emphasis
  • Generally play the root on beat 1 and another consonant chord tone on beat 3 (I.E. root, 3rd and 5th are generally preferred over 7th).
• Beats 2 and 4 get rhythmic emphasis. Non chord tones go here; also 7th and higher extensions.
• Advanced players learn the rules and also how to break them.
  • This means an advanced bassists can play whatever works.
  • That doesn't mean a beginner should not learn the rules.

An observation of my own experience. I am often more melodic and less functional when improvising a walking line. So I frequently place tones other than the root on the downbeat. I am not a real jazzer and I normally read, but I have enough experience to play off the page a bit.

If I am forced to play by ear, I tend to simplify a bit so that I don't get lost. I assume this means I revert to playing the root on one more frequently. I have had a couple of people remark that they think I play better when I am not looking at the music. Maybe they are being duplicitous because the want me to play from memory?

I have also played with some soloist who get really bent out of shape if I throw in an unwritten b9 on a dominant chord or perhaps use a tritone sub. My point is different band members tend to have a range of different expectations on how the bass should function. Some actually do get upset if you get too adventurous.

I think folks prefer a smooth baseline rather than some herky jerky line that forces the root on every first beat.

Not sure why you think putting the root on 1 has to be jerky.

I define walking bass as:

1. Arpeggiated: Mostly chord tones
2. Linear: Mostly stepwise motion
3. Hybrid: Mixes both

I have seen the question asked multiple times and I agree that Linear seems to be preferred. Whoever there is lots of music that really calls for an Arpeggiated bass line. Glenn Miller's "In the Mood" for example

I tend to alternate in order to give my lines variety. With some songs I favor arpeggiated more. With other songs I favor linear more. Which some songs I mix them fairly evenly.

 

[koricancowboy]

Not if the players are reasonably good.


Bass has a much stronger responsibility to provide the harmonic foundation than any other instrument.

Walking bass rules as I understand them.

• Beats 1 and 3 get harmonic emphasis
  • Generally play the root on beat 1 and another consonant chord tone on beat 3 (I.E. root, 3rd and 5th are generally preferred over 7th).
• Beats 2 and 4 get rhythmic emphasis. Non chord tones go here; also 7th and higher extensions.
• Advanced players learn the rules and also how the break them.
  • This means an advance bassists can play whatever works.
  • That doesn't mean a beginner should not learn the rules.

An observation of my own experience. I am often more melodic and less functional when improvising a walking line. So I frequently place tones other than the root on the downbeat. I am not a real jazzer and I normally read, but I have enough experience to play off the page a bit.

If I am forced to play by ear, I tend to simplify a bit so that I don't get lost. I assume this means I revert to playing the root on one more frequently. I have had a couple of people remark that they think I play better when I am not looking at the music. Maybe they are being duplicitous because the want me to play from memory?

I have also played with some soloist who get really bent out of shape if I throw in an unwritten b9 on a dominant chord or perhaps use a tritone sub. My point is different band members tend to have a range of different expectations on how the bass should function. Some actually do get upset if you get too adventurous.

Not sure why you think putting the root on 1 has to be jerky.

I define walking bass as:

1. Arpeggiated: Mostly chord tones
2. Linear: Mostly stepwise motion
3. Hybrid: Mixes both

I have seen the question asked multiple times and I agree that Linear seems to be preferred. Whoever there is lots of music that really calls for an Arpeggiated bass line. Glenn Miller's "In the Mood" for example

I tend to alternate in order to give my lines variety. With some songs I favor arpeggiated more. With other songs I favor linear more. Which some songs I mix them fairly evenly.

Thanks for telling me the role of the bass. I wasn't aware until now. While I hear you, I disagree that I should be so constrained by root always on the 1 lines. In my 35+ years, I've never played with soloists who can't hear a third on beat 1. Maybe it's regional. Enjoy and I'll do the same.

 

[Wasnex]

Thanks for telling me the role of the bass.

That info is mostly for benefit of the OP. I assume you already know the role and rules of bass.

While I hear you, I disagree that I should be so constrained by root always on the 1 lines.

Apparently you did not read the part I put in bold:

Advanced players learn the rules and also how to break them.

• This means an advanced bassists can play whatever works.

I assume you are an advanced bassist, so there's no disagreement on what you can play. But this thread is not about you.

 

[koricancowboy]

That info is mostly for benefit of the OP. I assume you already know the role and rules of bass.


Apparently you did not read the part I put in bold:

I assume you are an advanced bassist, so there's no disagreement on what you can play. But this thread is not about you.

K. You responded to me, not the OP. Perhaps clarity in your response would warrant a better response from those you are responding to. If I address you, I don't assume others that "I meant to address" would know as much. I'm unwatching this so respond if you'd like. I'm out. Maybe if you're responding to the op, address him then?

 

[Wasnex]

Thought about this yesterday as I was playing through changes:

I don't see the point in thinking modally in this case, when thinking diatonically works fine and AFAIK accomplishes the same thing. The changes cycle through B Major, Eb Major, and G Major.

I don't claim I will do this perfectly. Bold = Chord Tone, but not necessarily a good choice. I treated a 7th as a chord tone even if the chord notation did not specify the 7th.

Ascending from 2nd fret on the A string, first bar:
|:|BMaj,D7|GMaj,Bb7...|EbMaj.....|
|:|B,C#,D,E|F#,G,Ab,Bb|C,D,Eb,F,|

At this point we're up at the 12 fret on BG [6th position Simandl], so probably should think about coming back down:
|A-7,..D7|GMaj,Bb7|EbMaj,F#7|BMaj.............|
|G,F#,E,D|C,B,Ab,G|F,Eb,....C#,B|A#,G#,F#,E|
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>^ You may note that I skipped D here. That's because Eb and D# are enharmonic. I didn't want to repeat the same tone.

Time to go back up:
|F-7,..Bb7...|EbMaj....|A-7,D7.|GMaj......|
|F,G,Ab,Bb|C,D,Eb,F,|G,A,B,C|D,E,F#,G|

Back down:
|C#-7,..F#7|BMaj..............|F-7,..Bb..|EbMaj.......|
|G#,F#,E,D#|C#,B,A#,G#|G,F,Eb,D|C,Bb,Ab,G|

Back up:
|C#-7,F#......|:|
|F#,G#,A#,B|:|

There are obviously places in this were different choices are possible.

|A-7,..D7|GMaj,Bb7|EbMaj,F#7|BMaj.............|
|G,F#,E,D|C,B,Ab,G|F,Eb,....C#,B|A#,G#,F#,E|
>>>>>>>>^
Let's make a different choice here to avoid the augmented 2nd
|A-7,..D7|GMaj,Bb7|EbMaj,F#7|BMaj.............|
|G,F#,E,D|C,B,Bb,Ab|G,F,...E,D#|C#,B,A#,G#| etc

 

[Steve Freides]

standard circle of 4ths (as I insist on calling it)

As in driving, where you're going determines which way you head. Descending 5ths or ascending 4ths.

-S-

 

[lurk]

As in driving, where you're going determines which way you head. Descending 5ths or ascending 4ths.

-S-

I and my students drive counter-clockwise most of the time around that circle, as do my tonal music heroes from Bach to Bird. I know it's a ridiculous hill to die on, but there I am.

 

[hhalt]

Something is unclear to me (and reading all replies didn't make it clearer). It seems that OP talks about an exercise regarding soloing rather than bass walking lines. I read

"When you get to the second chord, switch to the closest note in the new related mode and keep ascending"

It seems to me that it never says "chord tone" (even less root). It just seems to me to play a scalar line, and to be able to switch scales wherever you are on your line (chords don't seem to matter here).

So for example, on Stella By Starlight, if my rules are "start with lowest E", and "don't go higher than 1st octave G", I'd play this if I understood OP exercise correctly :

View attachment 7332704


Anyone else see it this way? I'm not sure if that's a really good exercise though

This exercise is much more appropriate for soloing then for walking basslines. It is a great way of connecting chords and voice leading. If you want a challange, try doing it with 1/8 notes, or in 3rds, and try starting on different chord tones. You are always a 1/2 or whole step away from the right note to connect the next chord. Regarding walking basslines-there are lots of ways to not always play the root on the down beat and still have a strong foundation in the harmony to support the band. Listen to Ron Carter!