Want some really 'true' sounding cabinets

[AlexanderB]

Most designs (fEarful etc) based on the Eminence Kappalite 3015LF will exhibit a substantial fundamental roll off in the bottom notes of a four string bass and naturally even more with a five string bass. ACME cabinets are much flatter in that region.

A two way (as in two boxes, active crossover) mini PA or small "hifi" rigs like Phil Jones will also be better, depending on the SPL you need.

 

[Grissle]

DI to FOH you're hearing your bass through a full range setup. Mimic that, try using a/some nice monitors, you may be surprised!

 

[1958Bassman]

Getting kinda close to the DI'd sound of the bass would be my definition of 'true'. The less color the cabs put on it, the better. I love the sound of my rig DI'd-- Just the right amount of everything... But once it gets to the cabs I have, that tightness is kinda gone. I don't wanna rely on FOH to DI my bass and then have it all in my monitors, though... because I rarely get any FOH support with my rig.

DI gives you the sound through that circuit, it doesn't mean it's the 'true' sound. If you use a different DI, which could be a necessity if the current one fails or your amp develops a problem, you'll be in the same position as you are now- looking for "the sound".

How you EQ the sound makes all the difference. If you want a really well damped sound, you can't use a vented cabinet unless you send frequencies that are above the tuning frequency- it doesn't happen because it's impossible to achieve good damping near the resonant frequencies. A sealed cabinet is much better for this, although good high pass filters can move the frequency range sent to the amp to a much more usable range. It is possible to achieve good low end response with sealed cabinets, but they tend to be fairly large unless you work with the manufacturer and find out what they have that's made for your specific purposes. High SPL will require more cabinets, but the sound will be tighter and better controlled. You also won't have a peak where the vent works and possibly another where the driver's response comes in- sometimes, the vent is tuned too low and causes a response curve that looks a bit like a telephone line being supported by two poles (two peaks and a sag between them, usually places where they screw up the sound as much as possible and making it hard to EQ). a sealed cabinet rolls off at 6dB/octave, so you still get usable energy below a -3dB point that might seem too high, but ends up being great for most venues. The cabinet(s) and speaker arrangement must be sized for the room- there's no such thing as one rig for all rooms. The last thing needed for a small room is a butt-load of cabinets and speakers.

I think it would be much more reasonable to teach yourself to play with different sounds, not just what you prefer. That way, it won't really matter how it sounds to you when you're onstage- FOH will be what it's made to by the sound guy but if you're recording, you'll probably go DI, anyway.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

My main gigging cabs are Greenboy Audio Fearless 110 and 210, with acoustic and electric bass. My amps are TecAmp Puma 900 and 500(PS). The Fearless cabs provide a nearly "true" tone. But even these slightly "color" the tone. To be honest, the clearest, purest, "true" tone I've ever heard is from my Greenboy Audio Crazy8 cabs, and from a Crazy88 I used to own. The Crazy cabs just sparkle with trueness. And that's the truth. They were especially true using an EA Micro amp, which is the cleanest, purest tone I've ever heard. No coloration with that one at all.

 

[3rdcurve]

Also do yourself a favor and check out the AudioKinesis Thunderchild for studio monitor tone at gig volumes.

I just seen a now discontinued TC212 composite in the classifieds for a steal, would be hard to beat for the price and weight!

 

[DukeLeJeune]

I've been playing on a pair of Kustom cabs for a while (Deep End 1x15/ 4x10)....

I am pushing 650W@4ohms per channel on 2 channels.

So if I understand correctly, you're pushing 650 watts @ 4 ohms into the Deep End 1x15, and another 650 watts @ 4 ohms into the 4x10... is that right? Are those both 4 ohm cabs? The ones I saw on Kustom's website were 8 ohm cabs.

Got news for you...once you amplify an instrument, "true" goes out the window.

I'm under the impression that most bass cabs have a deliberate native "voicing" that is intended to sound good on electric bass, and relatively few are designed to be essentially neutral. My background being in other areas, it wasn't until fairly recently that I even got a decent idea of where the goal posts are for a deliberately "voiced" bass cab. I think that end of the market is a lot bigger than the "neutral" end of the market, as ime people seeking DI-like sound out of their bass cabs are the exception rather than the rule.

Also do yourself a favor and check out the AudioKinesis Thunderchild for studio monitor tone at gig volumes.

Thanks for the mention, will33. Just to clarify a bit, this isn't just theoretical - I have customers who have replaced their studio monitors with my bass cabs, and customers using them for high-end home audio. My bass cabs have been specified as tracking monitors for professional recording studios by the acoustician who designed those studios (and he's using a pair in his living room). So it's not just theoretical - my bass cabs are actually being used this way by serious professionals.

 

[Arjank]

I'm under the impression that most bass cabs have a deliberate native "voicing" that is intended to sound good on electric bass, and relatively few are designed to be essentially neutral. ....people seeking DI-like sound out of their bass cabs are the exception rather than the rule.

My background is also in other area's, home-hifi, studio-monitors, etc. I designed my 210 to have no voice by itself. And I don't only mean a nice smooth frequency response, but also a smooth off-axis response(power response), low distortion and no phase jumps.
It just lets you hear what your bass and (pre)amp sound like. IMO (and that of many other bassplayers who heard/played it) this gives the player the most flexibility both on-stage and in the studio.
Some say a "neutral" cab doesn't cut through, well, then you haven't heard a "real" neutral cab with a good phase response. My 210 cuts through with ease since it's just so damn accurate and doesn't blur the mids like most basscabs do.....If you e.g. run vocal music through that cab it just sounds amazing and "real". It's actually a road-proof-studio-monitor, more like Duke's Thunderchild but then executed in a totally different way (but I guess Duke and I where probably searching for the same thing).
There's another bassplayer who has such a 210 cab with coaxial mid/high driver and he sold his Hevos stuff which is regarded as "high-end". He still tells me that sound-engineers ask what the heck he's playing his bass through. The most important thing is that he says that since he has this cab his sound just seems to be "right" and "real" he can't exactly tell why but he doesn't need to fiddle around with the tone knobs as much. With the old cabs he couldn't get it sound right no matter how the tone controls where set.

I allways find it hard to explain such stuff, people just need to hear it by themselves.
Not to be rude, but allways when the word "neutral" pops up people refer to the fearfull cabs. They may be more "neutral" then most cabs but they are notwhat I call neutral or accurate.

When your cab is neutral then you have one part form your signal chain that's somehow your reference point. If you want a different sound then buy a different bass, strings or amp. If e.g. the highs sound clanky, it's not the cab but something else in the chain, the strings, pickups or pre-amp.

I've build many, many cabs that where based on the regular concepts but those couldn't give me a good "neutral" sound. I had to steer away from those concepts and use knowledge from other area's and use those in my basscab.

 

[eukatheude]

You will never get a "true" sound, yes, but you can get it to be transparent enough.

How do you know the "true tone" of your bass? ALl you can do is find a sound you like because there's no reference system to play through. If you're referring to the acoustic sound, you'll NEVER achieve that with any pickup.

Piezo?

 

[Arjank]

You will never get a "true" sound

I disagree
And with all others who say the same just cause bass is an electric instrument, then tell me why do different wood types give you a difference in sound? Cause it changes the way the strings vibrate, it changes their harmonic content. It's an acoustic instrument and the string vibrations are just converted into an electric signal. A cab that has a "flawed" frequency&phase response and high harmonic distortion will NOT show you all the small variations that are in the original signal that comes from those pickups. And it are those tiny things in the signal that make the instrument sound "real" or not and give the instrument it's character.

 

[DukeLeJeune]

My background is also in other areas, home-hifi, studio-monitors, etc. I designed my 210 to have no voice by itself. And I don't only mean a nice smooth frequency response, but also a smooth off-axis response(power response), low distortion and no phase jumps.
It just lets you hear what your bass and (pre)amp sound like. IMO (and that of many other bassplayers who heard/played it) this gives the player the most flexibility both on-stage and in the studio.

... It's actually a road-proof-studio-monitor, more like Duke's Thunderchild but then executed in a totally different way (but I guess Duke and I where probably searching for the same thing).

I have no doubt that your 210 does exactly what you say, it's one of the formats that can do so, and I must admit that there is a certain elegance to the coaxial format when done right. And imo you're doing the coaxial thing right, by not asking the coax midwoof to handle long bass excursions.

I strongly agree with your focus on what's happening off-axis, as that's perceptually much more important than the on-axis response. So I think your conclusion that we are searching for the same thing is accurate. Fortunately, I don't have to compete against you!!

Not to be rude, but allways when the word "neutral" pops up people refer to the fearfull cabs. They may be more "neutral" then most cabs but they are notwhat I call neutral or accurate.

In my opinon the relatively new fEARless F112 is a better candidate for neutrality than its original fEARful counterpart, due to the inherently smoother Faital midrange in the fEARless version.

 

[Downunderwonder]

How does one determine the true tone of the instrument?

 

[Arjank]

Fortunately, I don't have to compete against you!!

And vise versa

And imo you're doing the coaxial thing right, by not asking the coax midwoof to handle long bass excursions.

Exactly.
What's also very important is the crossover point between mid and high section. When done right the whole thing acts as a point source giving you great phase response in a very broad listening angle and achieving good constant-directivity (guess you studied on the Earl Geddes stuff too). You just can't get that with a regular three-way system.
Edit: the coaxial driver should also be (nearly)coïncident, one with a separate magnet on the back of the woofer's magnet is a no-go. Both parts of the Oberton coxial unit make use of the same magnet structure.

 

[pwsharp]

Most designs (fEarful etc) based on the Eminence Kappalite 3015LF will exhibit a substantial fundamental roll off in the bottom notes of a four string bass and naturally even more with a five string bass. ACME cabinets are much flatter in that region.

A two way (as in two boxes, active crossover) mini PA or small "hifi" rigs like Phil Jones will also be better, depending on the SPL you need.

According to ([Invalid or Expired Link Removed]) "fEARful cabinets are designed to faithfully reproduce what is put into them without coloration." And power-for-weight a fEARful can pack a whopping punch ([Invalid or Expired Link Removed]).

Peter

 

[DukeLeJeune]

Edit: the coaxial driver should also be (nearly)coïncident, one with a separate magnet on the back of the woofer's magnet is a no-go. Both parts of the Oberton coxial unit make use of the same magnet structure.

I didn't realize the Obertons used a common magnet structure - very good job! Tannoy uses that format with great success in the high-end audio world, and I think B&C uses it as well on a few models.

I also like Oberton's choice to not use a separate little coaxial horn for the high frequency section, as reflections off the back of a separate horn cause cancellation dips typically in the 1-2 kHz region. Of course not using a separate horn means that you need to keep cone motion minimized because the cone itself is your horn... obviously that's not news to you, but just mentioning it for others reading along.

 

[Arjank]

I didn't realize the Obertons used a common magnet structure - very good job! Tannoy uses that format with great success in the high-end audio world, and I think B&C uses it as well on a few models.

I also like Oberton's choice to not use a separate little coaxial horn for the high frequency section, as reflections off the back of a separate horn cause cancellation dips typically in the 1-2 kHz region. Of course not using a separate horn means that you need to keep cone motion minimized because the cone itself is your horn... obviously that's not news to you, but just mentioning it for others reading along.

Yeah, these Oberton's are great. The "motor" is actually two poleplates with each it's own magnet gap. Between them are these very flat neodymium magnets. The poleplate on the back is for the HF driver and the poleplate on the front for the mid. Though it's not fully coïncident this design comes real close since the magnets are very flat, with a cross-over pount of 1.8khz this ain't no problem. Very neat design.

Yes, a separate horn would be a no-go too.
And you're so true about the cone movement, it should not make these big excursion it would severely alter the HF units performance. In this case the papercone indeed acts as an extension for the HF horn.

 

[DukeLeJeune]

...a sealed cabinet rolls off at 6dB/octave.

Depends on the Qts of the system. The relatively low Qts of .50 required for a 6 dB/octave rolloff is probably rare in a bass cab. I would guess that most sealed bass cabs have a Qts of greater than .707, and therefore a rolloff rate of greater than 12 dB per octave.

 

[bassdude51]

Got news for you...once you amplify an instrument, "true" goes out the window.

Ha ha ha ha! Absolutely!

The Acme Low B cabs are really nice but they are not loud and that is the problem with bass cabs. Ya want low and true? Low db! Ya want high db? Low frequency suffers.

Bergantino and the Fearfuls are really nice and nicely walk that line of loud and true.

Let your ears be the guide!

 

[Arjank]

Depends on the Qts of the system. The relatively low Qts of .50 required for a 6 dB/octave rolloff is probably rare in a bass cab. I would guess that most sealed bass cabs have a Qts of greater than .707, and therefore a rolloff rate of greater than 12 dB per octave.

Most will indeed have a Qtc of 0.707 and higher. Though I think that there are a lot of ported cabs that would have a very low Qtc when you would close those ports due to the fact that most of these drivers for ported cabs have a strong motor. In these cases the rolloff rate is low but it'll start at a to high frequency thus pushing f3 up (a lot). There will be more disadvantages then advantages when doing this.

For sealed basscabs I would try to get the Qtc around 1 and Fc around 60hz, this will still give that "sealed" box character without sacrifying to much lows.

 

[eukatheude]

I disagree
And with all others who say the same just cause bass is an electric instrument, then tell me why do different wood types give you a difference in sound? Cause it changes the way the strings vibrate, it changes their harmonic content. It's an acoustic instrument and the string vibrations are just converted into an electric signal. A cab that has a "flawed" frequency&phase response and high harmonic distortion will NOT show you all the small variations that are in the original signal that comes from those pickups. And it are those tiny things in the signal that make the instrument sound "real" or not and give the instrument it's character.

I don't understand how this relates to what i said. All i said is: you will never, ever have the same exact 100% acoustic sound when playing through pickups, an amp and a cab. However you can get them to be the most transparent possible.

 

[KJung]

To the OP, LOTS of great sounding cabs, ALL of them have a voice.

For most, a 'true' sounding cab is one that they like

Once you dial in the voicing of the head, the electronic quirks of an electric bass, that literally doesn't have a 'true' sound (what is the sound of an unamplified EB, or for that matter, a DB with a pickup?!?), and then finally get on a gig, where the room acoustics vary massively every night (versus putting, for example, a stereo system in a fixed listening location), the concept of 'true' or flat or whatever totally goes out the window.

Some cabs have deeper low end extension, some have more extended high end, some have cleaner midrange, some break up a bit, some have peaks and valleys that can make an electric bass sound wonderful, and matchup wonderfully with a given amp's voicing, etc.

I would highly recommend not buying a cab based on what it looks like on the scope, since that is typically a very artificial environment that will literally never be recreated in a live situation with an EB and amp.

Best thing to do is try to play as many cabs with your bass as you can, to start to get a feel for the sound in your head.

IMO, and a trainload of IME on this one

Edit: First thing to do is to really define 'true'. Is 'true' that ability to match a certain category of recorded bass tunes from you favorite players (which, of course, is typically a very processed tone, often with a mic on a classic cab combined with some sort of DI to the board), is it the maximum amount of low end extension, is it 'transparency' (which typically means the widest possible frequency response, usually combined with a slight dip in the midrange and a super clean upper midrange response as we use the term in the TB community), is it a super present upper midrange response that doesn't carry over to the upper treble to make an overdriven tone sound 'natural and grindy' in a pleasant way), etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc. It is very hard to EQ a cab to 'sound different than its inherent voicing with the EQ typically available to a bassist.... choose carefully!