What amp isn't reliable?

[Apendecto]

People better check Rule #2 here on TB and watch the profanity.
I'm sure some Mods will be along shortly.

I didn't think ass was too bad...whoops.



Yo.

 

[skidrawk]

Under normal and careful use, how many of you experience problems with your amp where it needs to go out for repair?

Joe

Ampeg SVT 400T purchased new. I took care of it. One day I turned it on and it didn't come on. It was the last month of the three year warranty. I took it where it was supposed to be repaired under warranty. Never saw it again.
Repair Company: Jepco
Ticket # 80405

Wrote to ampeg.com. Never got a response or reply. I took a loss. Chaulked it up as a lessen learned. I still have and use the cabinets I purchased with the head.

 

[lbwdog]

Ampeg SVT 400T purchased new. I took care of it. One day I turned it on and it didn't come on. It was the last month of the three year warranty. I took it where it was supposed to be repaired under warranty. Never saw it again.
Repair Company: Jepco
Ticket # 80405

Wrote to ampeg.com. Never got a response or reply. I took a loss. Chaulked it up as a lessen learned. I still have and use the cabinets I purchased with the head.

There must be more to this story than you're telling us.

You mean you didn't follow up further, you just gave them your amp?

 

[myhot4]

I have had poor reliability with Carvin amps, as well as Ampeg, Aguilar, EBS, and Eden. The only amp that hasn't failed on me is Ashdown...yet plenty around here have had poor results with them as well. IMO, any amp has the potential to be unreliable, just bring a backup and hope for the best.

Just goes to show. Every amp company has a percentage of failure. Some more than others. Reading post here in the past has swayed me away from buying amps that were branded un releiable, including Ashdown at one stage, but recently done a rethink and thought perhaps I got swayed/influenced too much by the mob rather than following my own gut feel.

 

[bongomania]

...And we all know how important "gut feel" is to science and the likelihood of a technical failure.

 

[alexofc69]

It's not that, it's that they're made pretty poorly, and most of them will die within the year you buy them. (Some will even die right after the warranty expires!) Of course there are still ones that do last a while, but as far as quality control goes, Behringer is the lowest of the low.

Im gonna say pretty much anything Made in China. Went though 2 Made in China Ashdown MAG 300s. Garbage - Behringer Made in China so expect the same. I know alot of Manufacturers are starting to make their low end stuff in China to keep the cost down. So..I dont know. It can happen to anything. I had a GK400RB (US Made) that stopped working 2 times. Although the customer service was incredible!! I bought the darn thing used! the first time it did not fire up I took it to GK (when the used to be in Campbell, Ca) and they repaired and refurbished it for FREE!! They gave it back to me cleaned up, new knobs and repackaged like new!! The secnd time I gave it to a friend and they did the same!!

 

[skidrawk]

There must be more to this story than you're telling us.

You mean you didn't follow up further, you just gave them your amp?

Yes I did follow up. I called and visited several times. Then suddenly the company vanished. Building has remained vacated since. What else is there to say? Really. I wish there was more to the story.

Edit: Phone conversations like "I'm not sure what's wrong with it. We ordered parts and it still doesn't work" "We've ordered a new board" "We're sending the whole thing to Ampeg."

Edit: Yes in a sense I gave my amp to a company that handled warranty repairs and never got it back. I got by on rentals and eventually purchased a replacement.

 

[hoosierdad]

I bought a Backline 600 last month and the input jack went bad after three gigs. It might have been bad luck. I'd liked the way the amp sounded. I took it back and traded for a LMII. I will receive it on Tuesday. I do own a GK 400RB IV and have had NO issues with it. It works and sounds awesome.

 

[Jazzman]

Okay. Now my question is what was wrong with them? What specifically contributed to poor reliability?

When you say "failed" you, do you mean that you plugged it in, turned it on, and then nothing...

What are the poor results some people are having with Ashdown? Is the "poor result" that they just didn't like the product, or did a knobs fall off of it? Did it make a huge fart sound and smoke poured out of the back?

What are these reliability issues?

Joe

Carvin: Kept going into "protect" mode on both an R600 and R1000 head.

Ampeg: Kept blowing internal fuses on SVT. Repairman stated there was nothing wrong with the amp. Contributed to moisture from touring during winter months. An SVP-1500 had the output stage "fried"...was replaced under warranty.

Aguilar: Would pick up radio stations in different cities via the DI output. I tried different cables, tried to isolate the problem, and nothing worked. This even presented itself in the studio. Sent back to Aguilar and they sent it back stating nothing was wrong as they could not reproduce the problem.

EBS: Intermittent sound attributed to the effects loop jack. Easy fix, but wasn't cool when it first presented itself on the road as the volume cut in and out.

Eden: Transformer hum on two different heads, and one stopped working. Transformer hum was never rectified as the factory stated there was nothing wrong.

These all were during heavy touring. Gear was always in a shock mounted or foam lined case, but did travel in a trailer behind our van...during both summer months and cold New England winters. Not ideal, yet unavoidable for a band on the road.

Edit: I also had three Trace Elliot heads die in the mid 90's. An AH130 stopped working, got a new head under warranty, and the same problem occurred. I then "upgraded" to the AH350(?) and that one literally started belching black smoke out of it after a few months of use. The shop took it back and refunded my money.

 

[Bassist4Life]

Carvin: Kept going into "protect" mode on both an R600 and R1000 head.

Ampeg: Kept blowing internal fuses on SVT. Repairman stated there was nothing wrong with the amp. Contributed to moisture from touring during winter months. An SVP-1500 had the output stage "fried"...was replaced under warranty.

Aguilar: Would pick up radio stations in different cities via the DI output. I tried different cables, tried to isolate the problem, and nothing worked. This even presented itself in the studio. Sent back to Aguilar and they sent it back stating nothing was wrong as they could not reproduce the problem.

EBS: Intermittent sound attributed to the effects loop jack. Easy fix, but wasn't cool when it first presented itself on the road as the volume cut in and out.

Eden: Transformer hum on two different heads, and one stopped working. Transformer hum was never rectified as the factory stated there was nothing wrong.

These all were during heavy touring. Gear was always in a shock mounted or foam lined case, but did travel in a trailer behind our van...during both summer months and cold New England winters. Not ideal, yet unavoidable for a band on the road.

Edit: I also had three Trace Elliot heads die in the mid 90's. An AH130 stopped working, got a new head under warranty, and the same problem occurred. I then "upgraded" to the AH350(?) and that one literally started belching black smoke out of it after a few months of use. The shop took it back and refunded my money.

Excellent post! Thanks for that feedback. In your experience, what is the most reliable amp you have used?

Joe

 

[Jerrold Tiers]

With regard to abuse.....

I think you HAVE TO consider abuse in the reliability debate. PEOPLE WILL ABUSE EQUIPMENT. GET USED TO IT.

The same general quality of components are used in ANY level of amplifier. OK, some boutique amps will ONLY use "orange drop caps", or "Wima" caps, etc. But the differences in normal usage are minimal, at least as far as reliability is concerned. Any properly rated part will "operate" reliably in normal circumstances.

The "really cheap" amps may be made by slightly cutting corners on ratings. Transformers that are rated for less 'duty cycle", or use of a 1/2 watt resistor when it will dissipate 1/2 watt. Use of "just enough" output transistors, instead of a couple extra. Within ratings, of course, but not "de-rated". More expensive units may use larger transformers, a 1 watt part, add extra outputs, etc, using 'de-rating" to reduce stresses, heat, etc, and so add longevity.

Also protection circuits... cheaper amps may have very basic protection, and be possible to damage by abuse. More expensive amps will have extra output devices, and better protection, so they are more difficult to damage.

It comes down to user abuse as the issue, really.

And maybe not "true abuse", either. Maybe just use on a hot day in the sun, instead of under cover. That will test the cooling, and amps with "just adequate" cooling may fail much faster, or at lower temperatures. A more expensive amp may operate normally, or shut down instead of failing.

People WILL connect an extra cabinet. if "just enough" output devices are used, that may push the unit into failure. A more expensive unit may actually drive a speaker one 'step" lower in impedance than the maker 'rates" it for, in order to avoid being 'on the brink" for an advertised use condition.

In general, if the amp will tolerate abuse, it will also be cooler and less stressed in normal operation. A difference of 10 degrees C will change semiconductor life by a factor of as much as 10, for instance, which obviously affects reliability.

So reliability is really as much related to tolerance of abuse as it is to "normal" operation.


BTW........ it is a bit unfair to blame a manufacturer for the actions of a repair company which is not a part of the manufacturer, and whose 'relationship" to the manufacturer is a contractual agreement relative to repairs, only. I would be willing to bet that your disappearing SVT was accompanied by substantial unpaid bills owed to many manufacturers, and many other 'disappearing" units belonging to other customers.
I might add also, if the IRS closed the company down, you were NOT getting your unit back without the original bill of sale. The IRS siezes everything on the premises, and assumes it is all 'assets" of teh company unless you can prove it is yours. Another reason NOT to leave your gear at the gig......

 

[Bone]

I think all amps have there good and bad, but most of the time your only going to hear about the bad. I owned a UK Ashdown Mag 250 head that fail in less than 2 years. Was told by the Ashdown rep the warranty didn't apply as production had moved to China. I still can't figure that one out and although I loved the tone of that amp I'll never buy another Ashdown. Replaced the Ashdown witha Genz-Benz GBE400 That amp is still going strong after 3 years. I play 150+ gigs a year. Had my Trace Elliot blow output transistors twice but i keep it around because I like it. FWIW I bought my 16 yr old son a Beringer 300 watt head with Legion Sound 410 and 115 cabs, the whole setup came in at under $600. He's 19 now and 3 years of thrash metal and that stack still works great( sounds pretty good too!).

 

[Bassist4Life]

With regard to abuse.....

I think you HAVE TO consider abuse in the reliability debate. PEOPLE WILL ABUSE EQUIPMENT. GET USED TO IT.

The same general quality of components are used in ANY level of amplifier. OK, some boutique amps will ONLY use "orange drop caps", or "Wima" caps, etc. But the differences in normal usage are minimal, at least as far as reliability is concerned. Any properly rated part will "operate" reliably in normal circumstances.

The "really cheap" amps may be made by slightly cutting corners on ratings. Transformers that are rated for less 'duty cycle", or use of a 1/2 watt resistor when it will dissipate 1/2 watt. Use of "just enough" output transistors, instead of a couple extra. Within ratings, of course, but not "de-rated". More expensive units may use larger transformers, a 1 watt part, add extra outputs, etc, using 'de-rating" to reduce stresses, heat, etc, and so add longevity.

Also protection circuits... cheaper amps may have very basic protection, and be possible to damage by abuse. More expensive amps will have extra output devices, and better protection, so they are more difficult to damage.

It comes down to user abuse as the issue, really.

And maybe not "true abuse", either. Maybe just use on a hot day in the sun, instead of under cover. That will test the cooling, and amps with "just adequate" cooling may fail much faster, or at lower temperatures. A more expensive amp may operate normally, or shut down instead of failing.

People WILL connect an extra cabinet. if "just enough" output devices are used, that may push the unit into failure. A more expensive unit may actually drive a speaker one 'step" lower in impedance than the maker 'rates" it for, in order to avoid being 'on the brink" for an advertised use condition.

In general, if the amp will tolerate abuse, it will also be cooler and less stressed in normal operation. A difference of 10 degrees C will change semiconductor life by a factor of as much as 10, for instance, which obviously affects reliability.

So reliability is really as much related to tolerance of abuse as it is to "normal" operation.


BTW........ it is a bit unfair to blame a manufacturer for the actions of a repair company which is not a part of the manufacturer, and whose 'relationship" to the manufacturer is a contractual agreement relative to repairs, only. I would be willing to bet that your disappearing SVT was accompanied by substantial unpaid bills owed to many manufacturers, and many other 'disappearing" units belonging to other customers.
I might add also, if the IRS closed the company down, you were NOT getting your unit back without the original bill of sale. The IRS siezes everything on the premises, and assumes it is all 'assets" of teh company unless you can prove it is yours. Another reason NOT to leave your gear at the gig......

Wow, great post sir. I like your statement, "It comes down to user abuse as the issue, really." It's clear that some "abuse" can't be avoided under normal use. I can also see from your post that higher priced amps will be more forgiving to those unavoidable abusive conditions.

Thanks Jerrold.

Joe

 

[seansbrew]

I had an SVT 4 pro that blew up...


O.K...., I forgot to depress the bridge mono button while hooked up to run in stereo.
The only head that ever died on me was due to user error.

 

[nasaldischarges]

never had problems with equipment, including behringer

 

[Matt Dean]

troll...

 

[A9X]

I'm beginning to wondering if "reliability issues" are more rumor than they are a reality.

If someone takes out an amp and it burns out on the 1st show, I would suspect that there was some abuse/misuse.

If someone spills a beer on their amp, and it won't work on the next gig, I wouldn't call that a reliability issue.

If someone puts an amp in a situation where it could get way too hot and damage occurs, that's not a reliability issue.

Right?

Under normal and careful use, how many of you experience problems with your amp where it needs to go out for repair?

Joe

As someone who's done a lot of repairwork on gear over the years, in all sorts of fields, not just MI, breakdowns are due to; misuse / abuse, incorrect operation, external agents such as coffee or alcohol spills (and not IMMEDIATELY turning it off), poor connectors through overuse / poor use, mechanical damage such as dropping or not handlling carefully over tine, excessive heat and power issues (surges, lightning etc). These are the sort of things I look for first.

Reliablility comes from good basic design, electronic and physical, thermal management, rugged construction and good balance for moving and handling, and in some rare cases, excellent instructions that are clear, interesting, in plain English and entertaining to read.

At the user end, someone who cares about their possessions and takes care of them by being attentive to the quality of the rack they put it in, good cables, well cared for etc.

I could give many examples for all of these, but I will say that I feel general design and construction standards are falling in same areas, as profits are being maximised as a first priority. It's far from universal and brands like QSC, Quest, Peavey etc seem to be maintaining high standards. I've learned to pay a bit more for better, and relax.

 

[The Golden Boy]

I need to not sound like a broken record about SWR stuff... But it still chaps my bottom.

I had a Yamaha combo I used from around 1985-1992. I had an issue of the circuit board cracking. That was my fault.

I had a GK800RB from around 1992-1997. No problems or issues.

I have had a Seymour Duncan 300x300w head since 1996. It's had issues- but it was a basket case when I got it.

I've had another SD 300x300w head since about 1997/98 with no major issues (other than the fan sucking in a jacket and the fuse blew).

I had an SWR Bass 750 that blew up in it's first 3 hours of use. After repair it kept popping output fuses. Not overheating, just popping output fuses. It sounded great, but not reliable. In the least.

I have had (since 2001) an SWR SM-900 that has been into the shop more times than I can count. I got it out of the box, there was a screw loose inside the chassis, the DI was wired improperly, the power LED had either a cold solder joint or was a defective LED, one of the sides fuse well was bad... (there's more I just don't remember them all). The amp has never been provided a load less than 2.67 ohms, even though it's rated to 2 ohms per side, or 4 ohms in bridged mode. The amp has regularly overheated and gone into thermal shutdown.

I'm using 16 gauge speaker cables as well as the provided speakon cable when running bridged into my 2x15. I'm not running the bass excessively heavy, and I'm not pushing the volumes anywhere past 11:00 at any time.

I've had to install a fan to remove the hot air from inside the rack, and although that's worked well for several years, it's been giving me problems again. I've now drilled holes in the side of the rack to allow hot air out the side. I also got a top panel that I drilled a few hundred holes in to get more air moving inside the amp chassis, and allow more hot air to exit the amp.

The amp is completely and totally unreliable. This amp has failed on me in less than an hour, and provided plenty of instances of me being completely embarrassed because my big, fancy pants expensive amp shut down on me.

Look at the design:

This is no "myth."

The heat sinks are the long, rectangular things- the fan is directly to the right. The idea is that the fan will passively draw air from the back grate (top center), push the air through the heat sinks towards the exit grate to the left.

What problems does this present?

The air inside the chassis is heated by 3 things. The transformer (front right), the preamp tube (front left) and the heat sinks. The fan is pushing hot air through the heat sinks to cool the amp. Think about that. Hot air, cooling the amp.

The amp is designed to be rack mounted. The front panel of the amp is designed to secure the amp to a rack. It's recommended in the user's manual to rack mount the amp. I have the amp mounted in an SKB rack. The wall of the rack is around a half-inch from the wall of the chassis. Because it's so close to the exit grille of the amp- it's resistance to the hot air that does exit out of the grille. The air that doesn't dissipate from the wall of the rack gets pushed back into the chassis of the amp. Because there's about an inch between the chassis wall and the heat sink, that hot air is able to get back into and get recirculated through the heat sink.

But remember that the amp passively draws air into the amp. If the heated air gets out out of the heat sink, and out of the chassis, it's enclosed in the rack, and THAT air is drawn back into the amp.

Around 4 years ago I added a fan to remove hot air from the amp- it had done it's job- but it's been giving me problems for the last year or so again.

I'm thinking of reversing the fan, and actually blowing fresh air into the rack. Although that's introducing a lot of potential for dust into the amp- that can be cleaned out every few months.

When I first was amp shopping, I'd only heard good things about SWR amps. After I got my amps, that's when I started seeing the bad reviews on Harmony Central. Notice that the owners of older SWR amps are happy with them, and a lot of the owners of newer amps have had overheating problems and other QC related problems. I will never buy another SWR amplifier, and I will relate my experiences as often as I can to prevent other people from having the same problems.

 

[capnsandwich]

I bought a Backline 600 last month and the input jack went bad after three gigs. It might have been bad luck. I'd liked the way the amp sounded. I took it back and traded for a LMII. I will receive it on Tuesday. I do own a GK 400RB IV and have had NO issues with it. It works and sounds awesome.

I got my GK Backline 115 2 years ago. I needed an amp for studio and home practice and, for the price, it seemed like a decent amp. The first day I got it, the power switch broke and now it will turn off by itself every once in a while. Then the handle screws stripped themselves out since I would carry it from home to the studio. Nothing as far as the electronics went bad. It still sounds great for a $300 combo.

On the other hand, I've also got a GK 700rbII. This is my main gig/church amp that I carry around in my rack. I leave this thing in the car for weeks at a time, summer and winter, I carry it everywhere, I sometimes run it at 2 ohms, and leave it on for 4-6 hours at a time. I can say that I have yet to have a problem with it at all. This amp has been a workhorse in my busy music schedule. Any amp that can be frozen in sub zero temperatures and then play a 2 hour church gig is a keeper!

I really believe that it depends on what model you get. I know that the 700 rbII is a higher quality amp than the Backline series and there's a definate gap in quality there.

 

[greenboy]

I've never been that impressed with most heads, especially once I've looked inside. But power amps - whole different story. Reminds me of how many horribly abused and tortured Peavey CS800 I used to see around. They always somehow managed to keep pumping it out too.

Maybe longterm reliability testimonials would tell as much as anecdotal failure bits.