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What do you call it?
- Thread starter Slade N
- Start date
@Whousedtoplay is good at finding edge cases for ambiguous theory terminology. Always a fun discussion.
In the DB forum, Don Kasper has commented about the 4th (future!) form of the minor scale - the Dorian one.
(I would call it Dormonic as Dorian plus Harmonic.)
He used Sting's song, "Heavy cloud no rain."
There a lot of instruments creating Harmony - there are two guitars, the keyboard, and the brass providing us with that "overall harmony."
I have noticed quite a few interesting aspects about harmony and chords of that song.
Yes, it's has that clearly pronounced "Dorian" note in Amin - F# (in the overall harmony and melody), plus, we have the 9th also in the chord - Amin6/9, but...
The keyboard plays a dissonant chord (ascending) - G - C - F#.
With our song in the key of A minor, we could name that chord as Amin13 (because of that 7th), and we don't care if some notes from that chord are missing.
It's like Amin7/6/9(???)
The song has a (simplified) two measure harmonic pattern:
Amin13 - Amin13 and Bm7/A
or
Amin13 - Amin13 and D7(add6)/A(???)
My confusion about naming the last chord in the second bar is this.
Only the Brass instruments provide us with a clear expression of B as F# - B - (D.)
There is no note of B in the keyboard's chord.
There is no note of B in the first guitar chord - just A and D.
The second guitar plays something like a "pick-up" chord of Cmaj13 before Amin13 (and after the Bmin7 or D7) on Beat 1.
EVERY transcription of that song has only Amin6 and Bmin7/A.
How accurate that chord notation is with regard to my comments/notes above?
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One of my favorite albums.
It's good example of the limitations of Chord symbol shorthand,
but I'm pretty sure the harmony of Heavy Cloud, No Rain
Is just what you get when you ask high level musicians to vamp a bluesy A minor.
I would think of it a A Dorian + spices, if I bothered to analyze it that deeply.
As I often say, style trumps theory in most situations.
When I can't deduce the harmonic logic of certain choices
I just let structural 'rules' take a back seat to how it sounds.
If I can't slot it into a cadence, secondary dominant, b5 substitution, or borrowed chord,
then I just assume it's voice leading or "that sounds cool, man!"
It's good example of the limitations of Chord symbol shorthand,
but I'm pretty sure the harmony of Heavy Cloud, No Rain
Is just what you get when you ask high level musicians to vamp a bluesy A minor.
I would think of it a A Dorian + spices, if I bothered to analyze it that deeply.
As I often say, style trumps theory in most situations.
When I can't deduce the harmonic logic of certain choices
I just let structural 'rules' take a back seat to how it sounds.
If I can't slot it into a cadence, secondary dominant, b5 substitution, or borrowed chord,
then I just assume it's voice leading or "that sounds cool, man!"
In your thinking, how does "Dormonic" vary from Dorian? What is the alteration which makes it 'harmonic' ?
Here is my thinking.
When someone says, DORIAN, I immediately place the chord/harmony in the ii - V cadence.
In our case, that Amin6/9(7) or Amin13 is our TONIC! It's not our ii chord; therefore,
in order to solidly place it - the DORIAN "flavor" - in the key of A minor (as the 4th forgotten form), I would prefer to use a short, make-up word of DORIAN (the Dorian mode notes) and HARMONIC (as just one sharp) - DorMonic.
But of course, anybody could offer a better choice of term.
Just by saying DORIAN, it gives us a dichotomous example of Dorian:
1.) as ii
and/or
2.) as our Tonic.
The following is a link to an article on Sting's songwriting process:
» Sting (The Police) The Songwriting Process
"I mean, as a songwriter, as a composer, you like the sound of certain chords, and I like the sound of, say, D-minor-9th. [plays chord on guitar] But I also like what follows it, which is A9. [plays chord[ And the combination is… [plays both in sequence] That’s good, I like that. Where do we take it from there? Go up to B, F#. [plays those two chords] And over two bars, you’ve got a sequence. And we start humming along."
In Sting's example, we have Dmin9 - A(major)9, followed by B (our Dorian flavor) and F# -with Dmin at the beginning of his chord movement.
Talking about that particular, "Heavy Clouds No Rain," Sting (probably) had that "strange, dissonant-ly sounding" Amin6/9 plus "additives", and his musicians slightly "extrapolated" that harmonic sound by providing rhythmic harmonic movement, which added that confusing attractiveness to a long chunk of Amin6/9.
But...
It's only my speculation.
You keep saying "4th forgotten form" implying some lesser know scale.
So is your "dormonic" still 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 ? or is it an alteration of normal Dorian?
or maybe you can link to Don Kasper's orginal DB forum post....
So is your "dormonic" still 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 ? or is it an alteration of normal Dorian?
or maybe you can link to Don Kasper's orginal DB forum post....
Making up your own words for stuff is not a good idea if you're trying to communicate with other musicians. So I would forget all about "dormonic" if I were you. It's not necessary or useful, as the existing language is sufficient.
There's no "dichotomy" here. Saying "Dorian" doesn't automatically put you in the ii-V cadence. Dorian is the name of a chord-scale that you may use over the ii of a major key if you wish, if you like to think in chord-scales in diatonic functional harmony; but not everybody needs or wants to use modal chord-scales in that setting, and they're not required. You can say everything that needs saying about diatonic functional harmony without bringing in modes at all.
It's perfectly legitimate to say that a piece of music, or a significant portion thereof, is "in" the Dorian (for example) mode, the same way you say that a different piece might be in the key of Gb major. There's no dichotomy or analytical difficulty involved.
But we're getting a little far from the original topic, and maybe you want to start a new thread?
Here is the link to Don's opinion.
https://www.talkbass.com/threads/minor-ii-v-question.1573342/page-3#post-28158337
Classical Western Harmony knew that DORIAN MODE but decided not to incorporate it as an additional form of the Minor scale; otherwise,
What about another minor scale form of Phrygian?
I have clearly indicated that it was MY OWN concoction.
It's not written in stone!
OK I get it Dorian is a "forgotten 4th form"
only in the sense that it's not taught in the usual "3 types of minor scales" of Natural, Melodic, Harmonic.
In terms of actual recorded music out there Dorian is anything but "forgotten"
only in the sense that it's not taught in the usual "3 types of minor scales" of Natural, Melodic, Harmonic.
In terms of actual recorded music out there Dorian is anything but "forgotten"
I think we are preaching the same "WORD," but in (or for) different denominations.
How would you notate that chord of Amin with 6/7/9?
Well, except that those are not actually the chords to "Message in a Bottle." The first chord is a half step too high in relation to the other chords. (Perhaps Sting meant Dbm9?) So the analysis would have to be different. C#m9/Aadd9/Badd9/F#m is closer to how it is on the record. (Though I don't recall if that's the actual key. I think it is, but it's been a while.)
Very likely.
The biggest difference would be this:
With adding that 4th form to the minor scale, we wouldn't to say, "we borrowed a chord" in a case of the Dorian harmonic/melodic flavor.
Nobody "borrows" harmonic or melodic minor chords in a natural minor.
Those are STING'S words not mine!
I've just quoted, but...
Now, I will slowly explore that song, Message in the bottle.
Thank you for you comment.
I know, but as mentioned a ways back, this goes to purpose. The usual purpose of chord symbols is to tell somebody what chords to play. To do that you need to speak a language they understand.
Chord symbols aren't really notation, which would involve written notes. If I wanted an exact set of notes in an exact formation, I'd write them all out, or I'd tell the player verbally if that's convenient. For a chord symbol, here, I'd probably live with Am6 and let the players figure out how to develop that. I might do Am13 if I felt energetic.
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I'd probably live with Am6 and let the players figure out how to develop that. I might do Am13 if I felt energetic.
Sting never mentions that Dorian note of F# (edited - F#) in his bass-line.
Just emphasizing Amin7 - A - E - G - A - C - (D)
But, that dissonant chord sound in the keys - G - C - F# sets a different mood from our "sweet-grandma" sound of Amin6/9.
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I suspect he was slightly misquoted, or there was a communication difficulty. Note the minus sign after D; he might have meant Dbm9. Which would still be "incorrect" according to standard practice, but at least it would be "correct" in terms of enharmonic equivalence.
B isn't a "Dorian" note. And it doesn't matter whether he plays it in his bass line, if somebody else does.
