What do you call it?

[Whousedtoplay]

I suspect he was slightly misquoted, or there was a communication difficulty.

But what if Sting's quoted example has NOTHING to do with "Message In the Bottle?"
Just generically-speaking about his songwriting vision...

 

[Whousedtoplay]

B isn't a "Dorian" note. And it doesn't matter whether he plays it in his bass line, if somebody else does.

It's my typo. Sorry.
It's F#.
B is a characteristic mode note for D Dorian.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

But what if Sting's quoted example has NOTHING to do with "Message In the Bottle?"
Just generically-speaking about his songwriting vision...

But it clearly has EVERYTHING to do with that, because he's answering a specific question about how he wrote that particular song, "Message in a Bottle"! Plus, those are the chords (or, rather, the root movement) to MIAB, once that (IMO erroneous) D is fixed.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

But it clearly has EVERYTHING to do with that

You are correct.
(Here it goes my nice Dorian example out of the window. )
No wonder there are some people who have lost any respect for "journalists."

 

[petermwright]

In the DB forum, Don Kasper has commented about the 4th (future!) form of the minor scale - the Dorian one.
(I would call it Dormonic as Dorian plus Harmonic.)
He used Sting's song, "Heavy cloud no rain."

There a lot of instruments creating Harmony - there are two guitars, the keyboard, and the brass providing us with that "overall harmony."
I have noticed quite a few interesting aspects about harmony and chords of that song.

Yes, it's has that clearly pronounced "Dorian" note in Amin - F# (in the overall harmony and melody), plus, we have the 9th also in the chord - Amin6/9, but...
The keyboard plays a dissonant chord (ascending) - G - C - F#.

With our song in the key of A minor, we could name that chord as Amin13 (because of that 7th), and we don't care if some notes from that chord are missing.

It's like Amin7/6/9(???)
The song has a (simplified) two measure harmonic pattern:
Amin13 - Amin13 and Bm7/A
or
Amin13 - Amin13 and D7(add6)/A(???)

My confusion about naming the last chord in the second bar is this.
Only the Brass instruments provide us with a clear expression of B as F# - B - (D.)

There is no note of B in the keyboard's chord.
There is no note of B in the first guitar chord - just A and D.
The second guitar plays something like a "pick-up" chord of Cmaj13 before Amin13 (and after the Bmin7 or D7) on Beat 1.
EVERY transcription of that song has only Amin6 and Bmin7/A.

How accurate that chord notation is with regard to my comments/notes above?

View attachment 5335894

I love Sting. That band I mentioned in a previous post is my Sting/Police tribute band (I play Sting). We don't actually do this song, although I'd like to. Anyway, that's besides the point...

It's another tricky one to describe. I would go with Am13 for the first chord. Not a commonly used chord symbol - but also not a commonly used chord. I think it conveys the intent well. Am6/7 or something like that works too I suppose. Either way, it conveys A Dorian with both a 6th and a 7th.

The second chord, I suppose I'd have to go with Bm/A or similar, like the transcriptions did. I think that probably conveys the sound better than anything I can think of. There is that pickup there (I think it's a keyboard) which plays C and G underneath that chord, which does contradict with Bm, but there you go. The limitations of chord symbols again. Really what this is, to me, is an A Dorian groove. The Bm bit is almost not a separate chord, it's almost like a suspension on the Am13, in a way. However, just writing Am13 and leaving it at that wouldn't convey that sound really. Note that all of the notes in a Bm triad are in A Dorian. Although it's a Bm triad, you probably wouldn't play B Dorian over that chord in this song (although it might be a nice reharmonisation if you did).

For me, chord symbols are about writing something that conveys the sound and intent, rather than specifying every note played. They're often a compromise. If someone who didn't know the song played from a chord sheet that said Am13 and Bm/A it would sound like a good representation of the song, I'd say.

 

[mambo4]

How much information must be gleaned from a chart / symbol / notation
depends on the goal of the players reading too
are we nailing a specific recording, or are we faking our way through a standard?
How much voicing can you remove / replace before it's no longer the "Song of Theseus?"

Similarly, Wasn't this thread originally about Tort or something?

 

[the_Ryan]

Thank you.
When I try to transcribe "something" and I hear that someone is mis-interpreting that "musical/harmonic sound," I don't like it. I think that is one of the reasons that the REAL Book has become the Real (Fake) Book, but...
I agree with your concept of notating, more or less, "correct" chords without too many adds on, or omissions.
Transcription (for me) is not "paraphrasing, and it's close."
I really value your input. Thank you.

“Real Book-ification” and over-simplifying chords is definitely an issue*, but if the chord symbols get too wacky it’s probably better to write the chords out rather than to write symbols. Sheet music is a much fuzzier system than we’d like to believe, and ultimately when notating things it’s most practical to do what will make the intent the clearest: if it’s a chord symbol and slash notation that’s perfectly fine, if it’s a carefully-written part that’s also fine (putting chord symbols over a notated part is generally frowned-upon because it’s unclear as to whether the arranger wants the player to play what’s written or if they want the player to depart from that). Notating a transcription is harder since that’s probably the only situation where I would write something out and still put chord changes in the part, but it’s still probably best to use the chord changes to show the essence of what’s happening (and how that’s usually supported by the band) and then using the notation to show how the performer does or doesn’t depart from them.

*One of my least favorite simplifications of the Real Book is how on Great American Songbook tunes the compilers often simplified all minor chords (without alterations) to min7 chords, which in a GAS context is completely incorrect: in GAS tunes, min7 chords were pretty exclusively reserved for ii chords and for a minor tonic sound the most common chords were minor triads or min6 chords (or min6/9 or min/maj7 chords for extra spice). A min7 chord inherently implies dorian mode, and in a tune that follows functional harmony dorian is only used over a ii chord as part of a major ii-V-I. The mode that embodies a tonic minor sound in jazz is ascending melodic minor (b3, natural 6, natural 7), which does not contain a min7 as its tonic chord, which is why min or min6 is considered the “default”, and thus the simplifying of all minor chords to min7 obscures the function and context of those chords. In contexts like a minor blues or modal jazz (or really anything that doesn’t follow the GAS harmonic language) min7 chords are absolutely tonic chords, but in GAS standards that is almost never the case.

Apologies for my ending rant, it’s just something I’m passionate about.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Well, except that those are not actually the chords to "Message in a Bottle."

The following are some examples how different musicians transcribe/notate the chords from "Message in the bottle."
All chords are, kind of, similar but...

The last example includes A5 and B5 chords.

 

[Groove Master]

At least the last one has the right key signature,,,

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Of course, those aren't all transcriptions, in the sense of trying to render an exact account of what was recorded. Several are arrangements for easy piano or guitar or something. The first two are the only ones that reproduce what Andy Summers actually does. And it's true that in that figure, when he plays it alone, he plays no 3s until the F#m.

So something one might ask is, is the intent of the chord symbols in a given rendering (a) to reflect with exactitude just what the one guitar is doing or (b) to give a picture of the "whole" harmony for any other chordal instrument that might want to play this tune too (piano, 2nd guitar, ukulele, whatever)? The notes Sting is singing make it clear that the opening C# is felt as minor, for example, even though Summers never plays an E there. So if you just want to emphasize what the guitar does, you could call the first three chords all sus2. But I'm not sure that if a second guitar were playing along, that person wouldn't play something more like C#m(add9)/A(add9)/B(add9)/F#m. Or even just C#m/A/B/F#m.

I would say, however, that the Amaj7 and B7 renderings in particular are kind of silly. They're not the sound of this song. They seem like what some trained or semitrained person thought Sting should have done or really meant.

 

[Groove Master]

Also it is a diatonic riff based on fifths:1-5-9 on all the chords. A very open and hollow harmony here.

 

[mambo4]

Also it is a diatonic riff based on fifths:1-5-9 on all the chords. A very open and hollow harmony here.

One thing I gleaned form Beato's recent interview with Andy Summers was Andy's frequent avoidance of any 3rds in his voicings. Much of the Police's harmonic sound came from that approach. But I don't think Andy used Tort.

 

[Groove Master]

One thing I gleaned form Beato's recent interview with Andy Summers was Andy's frequent avoidance of any 3rds in his voicings. Much of the Police's harmonic sound came from that approach. But I don't think Andy used Tort.

What is Tort?

 

[mambo4]

What is Tort?

Tortise Shell Pickguards, a perennial topic of debate among purists in the basses forum.
A joke from my earlier post about how this thread (and my post) has veered off topic a bit.

 

[Groove Master]

Tortise Shell Pickguards, a perennial topic of debate among purists in the basses forum.
A joke from my earlier post about how this thread (and my post) has veered off topic a bit.

Haha ok. Yes its getting way too off for me.

 

[Bob_Ross]

if you’re wanting to be very specific about voicings, then chord symbols are not going to give you that. The purpose of a chord symbol is to tell you which chord to play, but not exactly how to voice it - that’s what the notation is for. If you’re writing chord symbols, the implication is that someone is going to read them and play them - and voice them how they choose. If you want them to voice it a particular way, write the notation and don’t bother with the chord symbol.

QFT

 

[Whousedtoplay]

C#m(add9)/A(add9)/B(add9)/F#m. Or even just C#m/A/B/F#m.

The following is the first arpeggiated chord of Andy.
And it has a clearly pronounced C#min11 - the F#note - at the end.

https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...7/?temp_hash=5cde24df871e89301c46d12efa50b0fe

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Andy's frequent avoidance of any 3rds in his voicings.

The very second chord of A that Andy plays has that 3rd - C# in it; therefore, it can be Asus2.

https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...0/?temp_hash=5cde24df871e89301c46d12efa50b0fe

 

[Richard Lindsey]

The following is the first arpeggiated chord of Andy.
And it has a clearly pronounced C#min11 - the F#note - at the end.

https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...7/?temp_hash=5cde24df871e89301c46d12efa50b0fe

I'm not hearing that TBH. And honestly, it's pretty hard to hear anything in this slowed-down, distorted snippet. But over the tune it's pretty clear that he's playing C#-G#-D# there. No F#. Watch this video:

This is an official video. Watch how he fingers the riff. Obviously this isn't live, but he's clearly trying to mimic the fingering he used when he did play it. I don't know if you're familiar with guitar, but with the fingering he's using, it would be all but impossible for him to hit a high F# on the C# chord. And it doesn't sound like it anyway; I hear D#. Possibly you're hearing an overtone or string noise, or some artefact of how you pulled this bit out of the recording and processed it.

 

[petermwright]

The following is the first arpeggiated chord of Andy.
And it has a clearly pronounced C#min11 - the F#note - at the end.

https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...7/?temp_hash=5cde24df871e89301c46d12efa50b0fe

There are two guitars on the record, it's double tracked. The main part, which is what he plays live, is C# G# D#, A E B, etc. Hence the sus2. The 11th (and the C# on the A chord) are in the 2nd, harmony part. Once again - trying to put chord symbols to things where chord symbols can't adequately describe what's going on.