What Exactly is Muscle Memory

[SurferJoe46]

Somewhat like 'Flat Earth' was bandied about too. Just because something's spoken of (like a lie) for a period of time and it never gets challenged, that must make it the truth - right?

Logic defies falsehoods I guess. Or do I have that backwards?

Let's call it: "Spatial Cognizance".

Otherwise a finger up your nose and a finger on the third fret/E string will be the same learned response by an badly educated muscle.

Shame on you! Bad muscle! You KNOW better than that!

 

[onosson]

English compound words are typically quite variable:

"The compound noun structure is extremely varied in the types of meaning relations it can indicate. It can be used to indicate what someone does (language teacher), what something is for (waste-paper basket, grindstone), what the qualities of something are (whiteboard), how something works (immersion heater), when something happens (night frost), where something is (doormat), what something is made of (woodpile), and so on."
(Ronald Carter and Michael McCarthy, Cambridge Grammar of English. Cambridge University Press, 2006)

"Muscle memory" fits in well with a couple of these, including "what something is for", "what the qualities of something are", and is not necessarily connected to "where something is".

 

[Drewski9]

Since that is quite obvious, why not use the simple interpretation of muscle memory as "memory pertaining to the usage of muscles" rather than "memory contained within muscles"?

There's nothing in the term that indicates the specific relationship between the two words.

What I learned from a Hopkido instructor. If you do something once you see it, if you do the same thing 100 times you know it, if you do it 1000 times you will never forget it. This is the process of developing muscle memory. Where you do not have to tell your hand every step of every detail of what to do. The verbal part of your brain just says "go" creating a chain reaction without thinking through all the details. The non-Verbal part of your brain (where the muscle memory exists) takes care of the details. Being non-verbal there is no play by play description so it seems like magic. If there was a play by play it would slow things down considerably.
In fighting, just like music, thinking can get you trashed.
mmmmm... maybe it is all the same.
Let's now digress into Zen statements and talk backwards like Yoda.

 

[SurferJoe46]

English compound words are typically quite variable:

"The compound noun structure is extremely varied in the types of meaning relations it can indicate. It can be used to indicate what someone does (language teacher), what something is for (waste-paper basket, grindstone), what the qualities of something are (whiteboard), how something works (immersion heater), when something happens (night frost), where something is (doormat), what something is made of (woodpile), and so on."
(Ronald Carter and Michael McCarthy, Cambridge Grammar of English. Cambridge University Press, 2006)

"Muscle memory" fits in well with a couple of these, including "what something is for", "what the qualities of something are", and is not necessarily connected to "where something is".

No it doesn't.

In all the examples you cited, the two juxtaposed words are quite correctly related. This gets you some soup.

'Language teacher' denotes something correct ie: language being taught by someone.

'Immersion heater' also fits nicely since it is (an element) that is heating water whilst being inserted into a container with a liquid of some sort.

'Wastepaper basket' also exists as they are happily co-existent. It would therefor be a receptacle that contains used paper.

But 'muscle memory' does not exist since muscles have no memory. Therefor it is a crass assumption to say that they are related; they're not even relate-able.

Now concerning your presumptive assumption - no soup for you.

I'll give you a break now - I gotta go train my bass muscles for a while.

 

[ffutterman]

No it doesn't.

In all the examples you cited, the two juxtaposed words are quite correctly related. This gets you some soup.

'Language teacher' denotes something correct ie: language being taught by someone.

'Immersion heater' also fits nicely since it is (an element) that is heating water whilst being inserted into a container with a liquid of some sort.

'Wastepaper basket' also exists as they are happily co-existent. It would therefor be a receptacle that contains used paper.

But 'muscle memory' does not exist since muscles have no memory. Therefor it is a crass assumption to say that they are related; they're not even relate-able.

Now concerning your presumptive assumption - no soup for you.

I'll give you a break now - I gotta go train my bass muscles for a while.

By that logic, the hippocampus does not exist because you do not literally have a seahorse in your brain. Also, seahorses don't exist because they aren't actually horses.

Yes, "muscle memory" may not be the most accurate way to represent the phenomenon to which it refers, but it is a specific phrase used to refer to a specific occurrence nonetheless.

 

[electracoyote]

Heh heh, interesting debate. Some terms are not for the literal-minded.

I use the term "muscle memory" loosely with my guitar and bass students. I use the analogy of finding a light switch in the dark. You can't see it, but after some trial and error and training your appendages, your arm and hand know exactly where to go each and every time.

Yes, it is literally a brain-muscle connection, but it is so automatic as to give the impression that it takes no thought. In fact, with enough repetition, it takes very little mental energy, and that's one of the goals of a musician.

 

[SurferJoe46]

By that logic, the hippocampus does not exist because you do not literally have a seahorse in your brain. Also, seahorses don't exist because they aren't actually horses.

Yes, "muscle memory" may not be the most accurate way to represent the phenomenon to which it refers, but it is a specific phrase used to refer to a specific occurrence nonetheless.

OK - one last shot at you::::

'Meteorologist' also exist, but in former times they were weather (and court fools) who predicted the weather by the perceived effect of passing meteors.

We grow and yet we are still stunted. <sigh> <repeat sigh>

When you elevate a non-medical descriptive term (a non-existing concept: the commingling of two unrelated terms) to the same level as a Latin or Greek or even Cro-Magnum medico-physiological phrase as a rote reason for something to (incorrectly) exist, then you might just as well start text-speak too.

How's that workin' out for ya?

I really REALLY gotta go grow some gray matter in my bass muscles now!

 

[NoiseNinja]

Brains are where memories exist, like it or not.

So I am told, and I even believe it myself. But muscles do in fact have (have, not are) memory, in much the same way that "you" have memory.

And again, you still havn't answered me how pacemakers works (like I am aware of the fact that you didn't realy understood or paid attention to most of the facts I lined up in my first post). But you'll see if there isn't much of a connection from the muscles to the brain, how come pacemakers works and are placed in the heart and not the brain?

It seems like sometimes you really are wrong!

 

[NoiseNinja]

In the red corner, weighing in at 325 pounds and over 6 feet tall, llllllladies and gentlemen I present to you: The Internet!

In the blue corner, weighing in at 103 pounds and 5 feet - 2 inches tall, the returning opponent: Science!

Turns out, this thread was actually done at this post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12bass
Part of "muscle memory" is actually a function of the cerebellum, which stores the procedures and patterns (motor skills) that we practice. Once learned, we need only think of doing the task, and we can perform complex movements relatively easily.

Procedural memory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

+1

 

[Fergie Fulton]

LOL lots of ideas and info even if some of it is off base.
For the modern understanding muscle memory is basically " windows for the body". In the old days before Microsoft introduced Windows everything a computer done had to be done manually in a variety of time consuming languages and processes.
Now a days we just push a button for the main part of the task and the programme or app does the hard work.
So consider muscle memory as an App.
It fills in all the mundane and intricate details that allows us to just do the action we want with no fuss or thought of the process involved.

 

[Kamael83]

No - that's just persistence of cognitive mental imagery. With logic like that, I bet I can sell you some 'Smart Muscle Pills'.

The muscles cannot negate an action nor infuse capacity to play a song no matter the pattern nor the sameness of the music unless the muscular contractions and release creates too much muscular fatigue.

The true limiting factors of muscles are: if the skeleton can move in the required dimension: if the muscle itself is capable of such contraction and/or release: if there is a physically limiting barrier to that motion.

2 Things: first of all I think some of you guys are totally overcomplicating simple things....It sounds all nice and smart...but is there a need for that really?

second thing...you totally misunderstood me...Believe it or not I`m educated enough to know what muscles can and cannot do,,...I used muscle memory to type this message (I don`t look at the keyboard while typing) In my opinion my example from previous post was fine...The idea is that your muscles "are getting used to" certain work and they can repeat it whenever your brain requires it without hesitation....Guys who are training Karate for instance...year by year they keep repeating same hit (you saw this in the movies...a lot of them standing in the gym ..doing same hiiiiiyaaah thing) they do that so "their muscles will at some point in some situation react faster then their brain" ....

ps in case you are going to try to catch me for words I used....remember they are between " " signs

Same for Bass players...we keep playing scales and arpeggios to "teach" our muscles how to act in certain situations....
Funny how that simple question from OP turned into 3 page discussion haha

 

[NoiseNinja]

2 Things: first of all I think some of you guys are totally overcomplicating simple things....It sounds all nice and smart...but is there a need for that really?

second thing...you totally misunderstood me...Believe it or not I`m educated enough to know what muscles can and cannot do,,...I used muscle memory to type this message (I don`t look at the keyboard while typing) In my opinion my example from previous post was fine...The idea is that your muscles "are getting used to" certain work and they can repeat it whenever your brain requires it without hesitation....Guys who are training Karate for instance...year by year they keep repeating same hit (you saw this in the movies...a lot of them standing in the gym ..doing same hiiiiiyaaah thing) they do that so "their muscles will at some point in some situation react faster then their brain" ....

ps in case you are going to try to catch me for words I used....remember they are between " " signs

Same for Bass players...we keep playing scales and arpeggios to "teach" our muscles how to act in certain situations....
Funny how that simple question from OP turned into 3 page discussion haha

I agree with you in disagreeing with SurferJoe, and I understand what you are saying. But as much as muscles do have memory, it comes from the brain. Your muscles can't react faster than your brain.
What they can is act on a part of the brain that's normaly subconscious. By reflex so to speak react on what they've learned.
Subconsciously you can react a lot faster since your consciousness is delayed by 1/2 a second or something like that.
In fact most of the things we do, we do subconsciously. The now is seen from a conscious point of view so to say an illusion, unless you concentrate soly on consciousness (as in meditation). But that's a whole different story.

The point is you can train your muscles to have a consciousness of their own. And become more conscious of them as you train them.
Body awareness seems like the thing SurferJoe is missing out on. Although I'm sure he does use muscle memory all the time, not least when playing bass, but also at more simple tasks like walking.

 

[mambo4]

IMHO 'muscle memory' is proprioception : the sense of the relative position of neighbouring parts of the body and strength of effort being employed in movement

It's been called the "real 6th sense" by some researchers.

...and much like practicing music hones your hearing and deepens your awareness of pitch and rhythm, practicing bass hones your prorioception as it relates to the minute left and right hand finger postions.

 

[SurferJoe46]

So I am told, and I even believe it myself. But muscles do in fact have (have, not are) memory, in much the same way that "you" have memory.

And again, you still havn't answered me how pacemakers works (like I am aware of the fact that you didn't realy understood or paid attention to most of the facts I lined up in my first post). But you'll see if there isn't much of a connection from the muscles to the brain, how come pacemakers works and are placed in the heart and not the brain?

It seems like sometimes you really are wrong!

Are we speaking about voluntary verses involuntary muscular activity?

Heart tissue is exceptional in that it is not a bicep or triceps nor 100% like any other 'commanded' muscle. That's why I dismissed you errant comments.

The heart has it's own internal pacemaker that can fill in if signal from the brain is lost - a given. It HOWEVER is non-cognizant nor can it increase the pulse for harder activities, ergo: an electrical stimulator is sometimes medically installed.

Arrhythmia caused by vagus nerve failure or partial disassociation is what you appear to want to visit now- right?

By you awkward logic: One would think (incorrectly, it is) that after years of training for The Olympics or sex or any other stressful activity, that the heart would have 'learned' how to compensate for those things. And according to you - it has to by simple extension of your floor-less argument.

I cannot concede that point. Any high school biology student cannot dismiss your statement as anything more than wishful thinking on your part. Wishful thinking does not create a truth.

Some sheet or flat muscles are capable of a genetically programmed-in activity. This is not the same as teaching your bass playing muscles to be smarter, achieve oneness, Nirvana, or achieving a black belt in a martial arts, nor making them capable of remembering where they were at the time they held a finger on a note.

There is NO MUSCULAR FEEDBACK to achieve that. You are speaking of an adaptive strategy in the muscle itself - and this no matter what you like to call it - does not exist.

The communication line from the brain to a muscle is unidirectional and it does not carry messages back to the brain. The brain commands by stimulating the neurons to carry an electrical charge to the muscle and moves on to other activities and cognitively 'listens' for feedback from many peripheral inputs as to whether the finger DID indeed meet it's goal.

The brain works on many-multi levels all the time just in case you don't remember that.

When an anomalous result (eg: the wrong note) is noticed (the ONLY possible feedback here) from organs of hearing, sight, pressure in the fingertips and recognition that 'all is not well' from those peripheral sources, then the brain starts to recompute the application and correct the motion of the muscle.

The muscle cannot, does not, and is not capable of making such an activity. Muscles do not act like Pavlov's dogs.

You are wrong. Your concept is wrong.

Don't you have any smart muscles to help you understand?

 

[NoiseNinja]

How the hell did you learn to walk if there were no feedback from your leg muscles to your brain?

 

[tjh]

wow .. this is amazing this thread is still going on ...

I was all done with it, because quite frankly, whether or not someone intellectually accepts it or not is of no concern to me ... the phenomenon exist in the world of fitness and physique training, and if somebody refuses to believe, or refutes the term, so be it ... I have won several bodybuilding titles utilizing this principle, and if ask any personal trainer or fitness competitor who excells if muscles 'adapt' ... your response 100% of the time, will be "YES, without a doubt!!" ...

... well, if a muscle group is capable of adapting, to become more efficient, or more prepared for the task, it needs to be repetitively subjected to that task, until it becomes byeond its 'as is' or 'current' capability... and when the brain recognizes this point has been reached, it begins to orchestrate all the associated bodily functions to facilitate this adaption ... but, first it needs to remember and recognize this 'activity', based on the previous exposures ...

... until somebody comes up with a NEED (other than for those that take words too literally) for a different description/name/title for the phenomenon other than 'muscle memory", that name will suit those of us who have successfully applied the principles just fine, it is short, consise and easily explainable enough to relate to a client who is questioning 'why', or 'how' it works ... and quite frankly, it sounds cool, and it is easy to remember for them when I refer to its action at subsequent times ... if I was to say, "the neural and physical reaction that takes place which is orchestrated by the brain when we continually overload, over stimulate, or over challenge a muscle group and its associated connective tissue with an end result to perform a task more easily, effectively, or quickly" each and every time I will be using the words 'muscle memory', I will be rich ... my clients pay me in 15 minute blocks ..

Joe mentioned because I observed it doesnt make it fact ... well, ok ... but the trophies and pictures obtained utilizing the principles that I and others have spoke of in this thread under the 'slang' term 'muscle memory' make it fact enough for me ...

Edit to add: I was hesitant to even toss this out, but keeping in a music biz theme here ... why then do we call speakers ... speakers?? ... I have yet to hear one speak, let alone utter a sound without some sort of device plugged into them making them 'reproduce sound' ... makes no sense, yet is not challenged ... why arent we calling them 'sound reproducing cones of amplified sounds ' or something more accurate ... again, not meaning to be rude or disrespectful, but language in general is full of misnomers that are simply understood and accepted with no need to challenge ...I dont think anyone on here is naive enough to believe that their muscle fiber houses anything capable of thinking/remembering/etc by itself ... MM is a an accepted term for a PROCESS ...

 

[Meddle]

Muscle Memory is a polite way of saying "how Jerry Garcia played half of his solos".

 

[Kamael83]

It`s sooo funny
Best part is more or less you are all right....
Problem is you are taking single word like "remember" or "memory" out of a sentence and say: muscles can`t remember things!!! or muscles don`t have memory....And whole argument starts again...

For the discussions sake let`s agree on few things:
1. When saying that muscle remembers thing....we all mean that it is prepared to act in a specific way for a specific task....It doesn`t mean that muscle contains neurons brain tissue in which memory of the whole action / reaction is stored...I see people here arguing about that ....silly....

2. I would call muscle memory a reflex....this is going to be rough comparison ( english isn`t my native language) like Pavlov made a dog drool saliva on specific signal...you can "teach" your body (muscles and brain) to act in a specific way in a specific situation without you being fully aware of it....conscious..It isn`t really difficult to grasp....

We walk without thinking about it, we use a spoon without focusing our brain on it....your muscles know how to use a spoon and your brain controls that activity on subconscious level....and yes people with altzheimer have problems at some stage with using spoon...because in order to use a spoon you need both: fully functioning brain and muscles as in the end of the day brain controls muscles....

If you want to play G7 chord you need both: brain that will recognize signs on the music sheet, and muscles that will perform the task....The idea is to bring it down to the subconscious level....that you won`t have to think about hand position, frets, order of notes etc. the same way when you see a plate of soup and a spoon...you don`t have to think: ok now I will pick up a spoon, deep it in a soup and rise it to my mouth without spilling it all over ) you JUST DO IT.

ps. Like I said it is a very rough example...don`t take it literally because I will have to post something again to clarify things...and this thread will become biggest on TB

Pps. to SurferJoe about muscle feedback:
What you have in the muscles to generate the feedback signals are proprioceptors. The ones we primarily use in the muscles are called spindle cells. Muscle fibers tend to be long spaghetti like masses that contract. Spindle cells are also like long thin cells that are mixed in with the muscle cells. When the muscle gets shorter, the spindle cells shorten up and send a message back to the brain saying that the muscle is getting shorter. Then again there is a communication going on here. When we have muscle aches and pains, limited range of motion is because this communication is not happening properly.

 

[onosson]

No it doesn't.

In all the examples you cited, the two juxtaposed words are quite correctly related. This gets you some soup.

Yes - related in a variety of ways. Let's code each word, W1 and W2 in order.

'Language teacher' denotes something correct ie: language being taught by someone.

W2 teaches W1.

'Immersion heater' also fits nicely since it is (an element) that is heating water whilst being inserted into a container with a liquid of some sort.

W1 is done to W2.

'Wastepaper basket' also exists as they are happily co-existent. It would therefor be a receptacle that contains used paper.

W2 is for the purpose of containing W1.

They're all relatable, in distinct and unpredictable ways. That's how compounding in English works.

But 'muscle memory' does not exist since muscles have no memory. Therefor it is a crass assumption to say that they are related; they're not even relate-able.

The relationship does not have to be: W1 has W2. In fact "muscle memory" is very similar to the relationship of the components of "wastepaper basket".

 

[tjh]

Originally Posted by SurferJoe46
'Wastepaper basket' also exists as they are happily co-existent. It would therefor be a receptacle that contains used paper.

... until somebody tosses in a half-eaten ham sandwich, and it becomes a 'trash can' ...