What Exactly is Muscle Memory

[bassman2020]

Is muscle memory and finger memory the same thing accomplished by practicing a riff or baseline over and over? or is muscle memory actually strengthening of finger muscles in order to play a riff or baseline? I'm in need of clarification and simplification. Thanks you bassists in advance.

 

[VitalSigns]

In my very unscientific opinion, it's your hands and fingers just "knowing" where to go. Like being able to play without looking or in the dark.

 

[BassyBill]

Yeah, that's about it. It's all about being able to relocate a particular position (hand, fingers, whatever) by feel or "habit" as a result of medium or long term familiarity. It's not got a lot to do with physical strength of muscles - at least, not in the way I usually interpret the term.

 

[tjh]

Actually, the term 'muscle memory' is used in a variety of applications ...

As a fitness consultant, I will often refer to 'muscle memory' with the bodies capacity to 'rebound' after an injury or lay-off to its former condition (or ability) much quicker than if someone is attempting to achieve a condition or ability to perform a task for the first time ... in short, once the body is capable of something, even if not performed reguarly, it will be able to return to that point much quicker/easier than it took them to get there in the first place ...

... also, another term that we use in the fitness/sports industry quite often, is "the body becomes its function" ... again, very similar to the earlier example, only perhaps emphasis on the more you use your body (muscles, etc) for a specific function, like functions become easier to perform than for somebody that does not regularly perform functions of that nature ... in short, a trained athlete in a specific field, will excell in that field the longer his training for its specificity continues ... if you want a marathon runner to excell, train him specifically for marathon performance, and dont try to 'crosstrain' him into becoming a 100 yard dasher or hurdler ...

.. So if we attempt to incorporate the term 'muscle memory' into playing a musical instrument which requires 'fingering' movements, to perform these motions repetitiously will not only make them 'ingrained' to routinely perform, it will/should also allow for future fingerings that were at first difficult to perform to become easier to learn and adapt to quicker than one that will attempt the same fingerings on a more occasional basis ... also, the more that muscles are used (and then allowed to properly rest and recover) they will become stronger (developing more strength) and should also develop more speed and stamina over time, once the muscles and connective tissue utilized for these motions gets acclimated to the motion ....

.. a very long answer to a fairly simple question, but to simplify ... yes to both of your questions

 

[Marley's Ghost]

I have always understood muscle memory as the ability of the muscles to perform tasks without executive control from the "thinking" part of the brain. Lower level neurons build networks in response to repetitive motions which in turn autonomously control the actions. The analog in computer technology would be tasks that are performed without interrupting the CPU.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

IMO. Muscle memory as used in bass music. Is see a G7 chord and your fingers just know where and how to play that G7's notes.

G7 = R-3-5-b7 place "the box" over a G note and play the R-3-5-b7 scale degrees of the G major scale.

You have stored in muscle memory that G7's generic makeup and instantly know how and where, on your fretboard, you can produce that chord.

IMO it's a combination of recognizing what you are looking at and then know how to take that item to your fretboard.

 

[countbassiedad]

I continue to wonder how much switching scales (30 vs 34 inch) might slow down the process of remembering (if at all).

I really noticed the scale difference on my Allen Woody and it tripped me up sometimes. Recently I switched it out for a Mustang which seems to feel less different from my J and Ray (maybe because its another Fender).

 

[12bass]

Is muscle memory and finger memory the same thing accomplished by practicing a riff or baseline over and over? or is muscle memory actually strengthening of finger muscles in order to play a riff or baseline? I'm in need of clarification and simplification. Thanks you bassists in advance.

Part of "muscle memory" is actually a function of the cerebellum, which stores the procedures and patterns (motor skills) that we practice. Once learned, we need only think of doing the task, and we can perform complex movements relatively easily.

Procedural memory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Rumblefisher]

Mostly right 12bass. The cerebellum controls "fine-tuning" of movement. For example, the ability for you to move your hand diagonally is a cerebellar function. Without it, we would have to move our hand out, and then off to the side, much like a mechanical arm.

The cerebrum (neocortex) contains the cells that "manage" muscle function. Memories are nothing but a series of action potentials that are "stored" in the limbic system...entorhinal cortex, hippocampus...there's a whole loop going on there to embed action potentials as "memories." In other words, a memory is a retriggered series of action potentials.

Muscle memory is this series of firing action potentials that cause the cortex to tell muscles to contract in a manner they've done before, finetuned by the cerebellum.

This is exactly why virtuosity is seen in so many youths...it's actually something called "plasticity" that allows for neural connections to develop in parts of the brain that function in playing an instrument. That's what talent actually is...the amount of brain plasticity present in a given individual

 

[delta7fred]

I continue to wonder how much switching scales (30 vs 34 inch) might slow down the process of remembering (if at all).

Very little I would have thought, if you move up the neck your fingers have less movement to make.

It is more of a pattern memory than an absolute finger position memory.

Wonderful thing the brain.

Edit
IMO, IME, YMMV

 

[Already In Use]

Actually, the term 'muscle memory' is used in a variety of applications ...

As a fitness consultant, I will often refer to 'muscle memory' with the bodies capacity to 'rebound' after an injury or lay-off to its former condition (or ability) much quicker than if someone is attempting to achieve a condition or ability to perform a task for the first time ... in short, once the body is capable of something, even if not performed reguarly, it will be able to return to that point much quicker/easier than it took them to get there in the first place ...

... also, another term that we use in the fitness/sports industry quite often, is "the body becomes its function" ... again, very similar to the earlier example, only perhaps emphasis on the more you use your body (muscles, etc) for a specific function, like functions become easier to perform than for somebody that does not regularly perform functions of that nature ... in short, a trained athlete in a specific field, will excell in that field the longer his training for its specificity continues ... if you want a marathon runner to excell, train him specifically for marathon performance, and dont try to 'crosstrain' him into becoming a 100 yard dasher or hurdler ...

.. So if we attempt to incorporate the term 'muscle memory' into playing a musical instrument which requires 'fingering' movements, to perform these motions repetitiously will not only make them 'ingrained' to routinely perform, it will/should also allow for future fingerings that were at first difficult to perform to become easier to learn and adapt to quicker than one that will attempt the same fingerings on a more occasional basis ... also, the more that muscles are used (and then allowed to properly rest and recover) they will become stronger (developing more strength) and should also develop more speed and stamina over time, once the muscles and connective tissue utilized for these motions gets acclimated to the motion ....

.. a very long answer to a fairly simple question, but to simplify ... yes to both of your questions

Excellent!

 

[mjbing]

is being able to slap the snoose button on top of the
alarm clock radio 4 or 5 times in the morning while half
asleep and not looking.

 

[SurferJoe46]

If muscle memory really existed, you'd never be able to take your hands off the steering wheel at the 10 & 2 position and put them at the 7 & 5 position without losing control of your car.

The brains makes that almost impossible correction.

If muscle memory was real, dead people would be walking. It's voodoo to think muscles can remember anything as they are not cognitive.

It's the nerves that send sensory signals to the brain from the tips of the fingers, palm of the hand. wrist, etc., then the brain adjusts the commands to position them where the sensory signals indicate whether they are or are not in correct position and makes adjustments accordingly.

They eyes, the skin and of course the ears are also in play here, as they can tell if something either doesn't look right or sound right.

That's not all that's involved, but there is no muscular memory. No magic. No talking muscles or brains in our biceps.

 

[JTE]

If muscle memory really existed, you'd never be able to take your hands off the steering wheel at the 10 & 2 position and put them at the 7 & 5 position without losing control of your car.

The brains makes that almost impossible correction.

If muscle memory was real, dead people would be walking. It's voodoo to think muscles can remember anything as they are not cognitive.

It's the nerves that send sensory signals to the brain from the tips of the fingers, palm of the hand. wrist, etc., then the brain adjusts the commands to position them where the sensory signals indicate whether they are or are not in correct position and makes adjustments accordingly.

They eyes, the skin and of course the ears are also in play here, as they can tell if something either doesn't look right or sound right.

That's not all that's involved, but there is no muscular memory. No magic. No talking muscles or brains in our biceps.

Not again... While "muscle memory" is a bad name, the idea is accurate. It's not that the muscles have any memory themselves, but as clearly articulated above the idea is sound.

John

 

[SurferJoe46]

So --- let's see:::

The PREMISE is incorrect therefor the idea is sound? I ain't buying it.

 

[tjh]

Joe, with all due respect, there is nothing to buy ... it is an accepted fact in the world of exercise and fitness ...

... others above have articulated the brains involvement, but my emphasis is on the muscle cell, and the bodies ability to repair/rebuild and adapt ...

... with that said, I will try to be brief ... any motion we make, recruits and actually destroys/damages muscle cells with that movement. With that premise accepted (its science) the body recognizes any repetitive/strenuous motion requires the damaged cells to be rebuilt stronger/more resilient than the previously damaged cell ... take a look at any NATURAL bodybuilder, and what they have accomplished with this process. Now along with the muscle repairing/rebuilding that is taking place, the connective tissue also being recruited (tendons/ligaments/insertions) adapt to the physical requirements placed on them, and they too adapt ...

Now if we fast forward in the cycle for sake of brevity in this explanation, our body adapts to a repetitive process such as the one described above, and actually adapts in its own way to perform the functions easier/more effectively, which in turn cause less damage to itself ... in othe words, our muscles (OK, our BODY ie: mind, muscles, etc., etc. if that fits better) actually 'remembers' what is expected of it (because of the repeated exposure), and adapts, to facilitate the challenge more efficiently ...

In my training consultations, I often use the example of the young apprentice roofer who has trouble walking along a steeply pitched roof ... well, after he has been at it for years, his body has adapted to the point that his MUSCLES, joints, connective tissue, etc makes the adaption to allow him to walk effortlessy for hours on end on steep pitches ...

The term 'muscle memory' may not be accurate in all cases that these bodily adaptions and transitions take place, but 'muscle memory' is a very real and relatable term that is well understood in the world of kineseological studies ... and it only makes sense that it would also be relative and accurate to describe the process taking place in the hands, which happen to involve some of the most delicate of all components in the human body .... JMHO, but it comes with years of seeing it happen first hand in the real world ... I have seen fitness competitors that have not trained for years, sometimes even decades, make comebacks and very quickly return to the point that they were at when then quit ... many, many times quicker than it originally took them to make those gains ... and THAT, is directly related to the term we use in the industry as "muscle memory' (the muscles 'remember' the repititions from previous exposure, and adapt quicker) ... if someone has a better name for it, that is fine, but you will get a 'deer in the headlight look' when you use it, as 'muscle memory' is the accepted term to explain it ... 'muscle adaption' may be more accurate, but 'muscle memory' is one of the generalizations used to describe the process, which obviously recruits more than just muscles ...

hopefully now the process makes more sense ... and of course the muscles would not be able to perform any functions by themself without the brain and central nervous system, etc. to ochestrate that movement, but with enough repitition and adaption, it really does almost seem it is an unconcious movement when we are playing riffs at times, doesn't it? ... Rumblefish above describes the process in terms that I dont even attempt to understand, but I have seen it demonstrated daily for years, whatever you want to call it

 

[SurferJoe46]

Your Operation Bootstrap logic is not entitled to say this:::

and of course the muscles would not be able to perform any functions by themself without the brain and central nervous system, etc. to ochestrate that movement, but with enough repitition and adaption, it really does almost seem it is an unconcious movement when we are playing riffs at times, doesn't it? ... Rumblefish above describes the process in terms that I dont even attempt to understand, but I have seen it demonstrated daily for years, whatever you want to call it

...and yet you insist that by observation that it is therefor true.

'It really does almost seem" and 'repitition' (sic) do not a physical truth make. They negate the observation in the most heinous way.

What you have seen 'demonstrated daily' is not any semblance to muscular memory, no matter what it appears to be or what you or anyone else call it.

What you MIGHT be trying to say is that neural feedback mimics what to a lay person may seem to be muscle memory.

Let's bypass homeostasis and go right for the eyes here: muscles have no sense of property, position, temperature, care not if it's day or night and care no less if they are playing a bass or picking your nose.

There is NO muscular sentience.

There is also no muscle memory, nor a place to store learned actions or reactions, nor do any muscles do anything of their own volition, unless we are want to enter into the homeostasis arena here. Since playing a bass is not a process of homeostasis, or peristalsis and cannot care what the action it is COMMANDED to perform results in, it is therefor not part of the reasoning nor learned response system.

A muscle can only move as commanded and cannot ever report their position - since that position is only being monitored by the brain from it's peripheral neural inputs.

Muscles can make no logical decisions, cannot go to a place or position by themselves no matter how many times you move them to that position. This is totally a process of and by the brain.

 

[tjh]

ok, Joe ... we can agree on one thing, you dont like the name given to the phenomenon ... time to give it a rest, I believe the OP's question has been answered

 

[MartinG1957]

We used to call it "practice"

 

[Tom_RCJ]

I don't think any of you are actually wrong. It's just that the OP was talking about something a bit more "big picture".

He was asking about the effect of an act being done subconsciously. Which part of the body is responsible? Probably all of the above. Muscle memory is what happens when we are able to perform a complexe action without thinking about it too much. Practice obviously have a phisical effect on the muscles, as we develop what is needed to perform these acitons, be it walking, talking, tying a shoelace, playing a musical instrument, wielding a tool of somekind...

We develope the muscles needed to perform these from repetition, unless the muscles are already developed in a way that allows the action to be performed.

Something also obviously happens in the brain as well, since most can talk without having to think of every single word being used, like we do when first learning the language, or the very concept of speaking itself. B.B. King doesn't really have to focus on his hands and fingers as much as someone who held a guitar for the first time yesterday. These are complex actions that often have to be hammered into us so that our brain somehow learns to run the program without us having to micro manage every single step.

"Muscle memory" is just what a term we use to describe being able to do something subconsciously. We just use "muscle" as an arbitrary body part. Probably because we still think of conscious thought as being "the Brain" and unconscious thought as being "not the Brain". That black/white view isn't really 100% accurate.

TL,DR: If it's hard; practice more.