What has fender done? ? ?

[SoVeryTired]

I'll buy from whichever counry produces the instrument that meets my needs within my budget at the time of purchasing. That means I have a US-made Taylor acoustic guitar, Korean-made Squier electric and Chinese-made MTD Kingston bass.

I'd love to get a British-made custom bass next, not so much out of patriotism but because of the amazing value when shipping and import duties aren't added to the price.

 

[Dark Horse]

Ok... this is the last time I'm going to point this out.....


The average manufacturing wage in China is 80¢ per hour. The average manufacturing wage in Corona CA is $17 per hour. THAT'S 21 TIMES the wage a factory worker makes in China. Add benefits on top of the $17 hourly rate and you have $28 per hour. THAT'S 35 TIMES the hourly rate in China. Add to that the fact that Chinese corporations don't have to pay workman's comp insurance, liability insurance, etc. Add to that that there are no regulations regarding workers rights, hazardous waste disposal, safety regulations, etc. and RIGHT THERE is where the extra $700 is coming from.

God's honest truth, I don't know why this is so hard for some people to understand...

Actually, the average manufacturing wage in China is $3.10 per hour (as of 2011, perhaps higher now as it has been increasing rapidly), with labor in Eastern China paying up to 50% more than that. Also take into account that most larger corporations there also provide housing, most food, etc for workers and they all live on the companies land. That said, the labor cost is certainly many times cheaper than the US, which is (as you pointed out) a significant part of why Chinese made items are cheaper... as is the lowered regulations (which you also mentioned).

For reference: China's Manufacturing Jobs Moved Overseas - TIME

Also... my father was the first non-diplomat allowed in communist China when he started relations with a company there in order to sell them a large ($1M + ) piece of equipment, so he saw much of this stuff firsthand.

 

[bassplayer8953]

Actually, the average manufacturing wage in China is $3.10 per hour (as of 2011, perhaps higher now as it has been increasing rapidly), with labor in Eastern China paying up to 50% more than that. Also take into account that most larger corporations there also provide housing, most food, etc for workers and they all live on the companies land. That said, the labor cost is certainly many times cheaper than the US, which is (as you pointed out) a significant part of why Chinese made items are cheaper... as is the lowered regulations (which you also mentioned).

For reference: China's Manufacturing Jobs Moved Overseas - TIME

Thanks for an informative link. But, within the link, lies the rub: corporations won't move jobs back to the US, unless our government goes to bat for American workers, and "encourages" corporations to do the right thing. Those that outsource will pick Cambodia, VietNam, India, or even Africa, as the next place for dirt-cheap labor. They want our money, but not our workers: bad.

 

[michael_atw]

Actually, the average manufacturing wage in China is $3.10 per hour (as of 2011, perhaps higher now as it has been increasing rapidly), with labor in Eastern China paying up to 50% more than that. Also take into account that most larger corporations there also provide housing, most food, etc for workers and they all live on the companies land. That said, the labor cost is certainly many times cheaper than the US, which is (as you pointed out) a significant part of why Chinese made items are cheaper... as is the lowered regulations (which you also mentioned).

For reference: China's Manufacturing Jobs Moved Overseas - TIME

Also... my father was the first non-diplomat allowed in communist China when he started relations with a company there in order to sell them a large ($1M + ) piece of equipment, so he saw much of this stuff firsthand.

"The average manufacturing wage in China is still only about $3.10 an hour, (compared with $22.30 in the U.S.), though in the eastern part of the country, it's up to 50% more than that."

Ok, so it's only 7 times less.

 

[lucas vigor]

Thanks for an informative link. But, within the link, lies the rub: corporations won't move jobs back to the US, unless our government goes to bat for American workers, and "encourages" corporations to do the right thing. Those that outsource will pick Cambodia, VietNam, India, or even Africa, as the next place for dirt-cheap labor. They want our money, but not our workers: bad.

+10,000

 

[michael_atw]

Why would anyone care how much the store is making?

Uh...what?

If a store doesn't make money, it dies. Get it?

But my point wasn't the profitability but the idea that they use them as loss-leaders. I.e. that they're still making money, but not on the Rics.

 

[Dark Horse]

"The average manufacturing wage in China is still only about $3.10 an hour, (compared with $22.30 in the U.S.), though in the eastern part of the country, it's up to 50% more than that."

Ok, so it's only 7 times less.

As I said (in the underlined part of my post) "That said, the labor cost is certainly many times cheaper than the US, which is (as you pointed out) a significant part of why Chinese made items are cheaper... as is the lowered regulations (which you also mentioned)."

 

[autodidact]

Ok... this is the last time I'm going to point this out.....

The average manufacturing wage in China is 80¢ per hour. The average manufacturing wage in Corona CA is $17 per hour. THAT'S 21 TIMES the wage a factory worker makes in China. Add benefits on top of the $17 hourly rate and you have $28 per hour. THAT'S 35 TIMES the hourly rate in China. Add to that the fact that Chinese corporations don't have to pay workman's comp insurance, liability insurance, etc. Add to that that there are no regulations regarding workers rights, hazardous waste disposal, safety regulations, etc. and RIGHT THERE is where the extra $700 is coming from.

God's honest truth, I don't know why this is so hard for some people to understand...

Alright its starting to come together and Ill admit I was hazy on all the facts. Thank you educating me, I'm 100% serious.

But now I wonder something else: From everything you just taught me, it seems to me that American Fenders are expensive just to cover labor...not because of quality. That extra cost is for wages, insurance, liability, workmans comp, benefits, hazardess waste removal and so on which makes for a damn good sounding job but doesn't reflect the quality of the instrument. I can see why they cost a lot now, you've help me to justify that. But I don't buy into the "only the best is made in the USA" philosophy that I've seen not only here but all over the place. It might be me, I'm admittedly a cheap bastard but I don't see why I should pay for someone elses benefits or bonuses or paid time off when I don't need to.

 

[bassplayer8953]

Ok... this is the last time I'm going to point this out.....


The average manufacturing wage in China is 80¢ per hour. The average manufacturing wage in Corona CA is $17 per hour. THAT'S 21 TIMES the wage a factory worker makes in China. Add benefits on top of the $17 hourly rate and you have $28 per hour. THAT'S 35 TIMES the hourly rate in China. Add to that the fact that Chinese corporations don't have to pay workman's comp insurance, liability insurance, etc. Add to that that there are no regulations regarding workers rights, hazardous waste disposal, safety regulations, etc. and RIGHT THERE is where the extra $700 is coming from.

God's honest truth, I don't know why this is so hard for some people to understand...

The people who have their sights on $300 basses don't care about the big picture. All they care about is their cheap cheap bass. Great plan...until your job is outsourced...then you're ...and listening to all the others tell you that it doesn't matter, as long as they get their Chinese cheapie. What comes around, goes around. One day, it may dawn on some of these people. Then again, maybe not...


Originally Posted by autodidact

American Fenders are expensive just to cover labor...not because of quality. That extra cost is for wages, insurance, liability, workmans comp, benefits, hazardess waste removal and so on which makes for a damn good sounding job but doesn't reflect the quality of the instrument. I can see why they cost a lot now, you've help me to justify that. But I don't buy into the "only the best is made in the USA" philosophy that I've seen not only here but all over the place. It might be me, I'm admittedly a cheap bastard but I don't see why I should pay for someone elses benefits or bonuses or paid time off when I don't need to.

...and thank you for making my point (above)
__________________

 

[michael_atw]

No kidding. Repackage the Vintage Modified line as "Fender Classic Vintage Reissue Yadda Yadda" and *boom* instant extra profits.

With the same bland Duncan Designed pickups? I'm good, thanks

 

[smcd]

Actually, the average manufacturing wage in China is $3.10 per hour (as of 2011, perhaps higher now as it has been increasing rapidly), with labor in Eastern China paying up to 50% more than that. Also take into account that most larger corporations there also provide housing, most food, etc for workers and they all live on the companies land. That said, the labor cost is certainly many times cheaper than the US, which is (as you pointed out) a significant part of why Chinese made items are cheaper... as is the lowered regulations (which you also mentioned).

For reference: China's Manufacturing Jobs Moved Overseas - TIME

Also... my father was the first non-diplomat allowed in communist China when he started relations with a company there in order to sell them a large ($1M + ) piece of equipment, so he saw much of this stuff firsthand.

Personally I wouldn't use that Time magazine article as a reference. This article is a more reliable source of data:

Invalid Link Removed

Squier instruments are made in southern China.

Using the term "housing" in reference to China, is a bit misleading. The workers don't have houses. They live in dormitories, several to a room.

 

[BurningSkies]

I can see squires being made in china, because that's there purpose, to be affordable. Fenders are supposed to be professional level basses, that's why I've always wanted one but I just lost some respect, maybe I'll go for a stingray instead.

Point me to the EB Stingray that's 400 bucks and of the same quality as the others?

 

[michael_atw]

Using the term "housing" in reference to China, is a bit misleading. The workers don't have houses. They live in dormitories, several to a room.

I always think of it like what my grandfather told me about railroad companies, coal towns, and steel towns. The tycoons owned the stores, businesses, factories, lines, and essentially the town. Everything in the town - the rent, food, goods - was sold by the companies which hired the workers.

So what happened was you got hired, paid rent to your employer, bought food and goods from your employer. So the employer would control the price of goods and milk your paycheck out the other end, while they milked it from the front end after you punched the clock. It was a cycle of double and triple-dipping. They'd build "shacks" which were "shantytowns" near the mines and the mills.

 

[audiomitch]

Uh...what?

If a store doesn't make money, it dies. Get it?

But my point wasn't the profitability but the idea that they use them as loss-leaders. I.e. that they're still making money, but not on the Rics.

These stores have been around for YEARS and are thriving. But hey, if it makes you happy to pay full retail, I say go for it. Just refrain from spreading misinformation and stereotypical Ric myths, OK?

 

[smcd]

It might be me, I'm admittedly a cheap bastard but I don't see why I should pay for someone elses benefits or bonuses or paid time off when I don't need to.

Well... there is that.


Have you thought how you would feel if you lost your job because people took that attitude towards your industry?

 

[lpdeluxe]

I had major surgery in December and just last week made it to the local music store and chatted to the owner, who has been in business here since the '70s. He has carried a lot of brands, and several big names have been dropped from his store due to his feelings about their business practices (not from a moral perspective, but from his own point of view of wanting to make a living). First to go was GHS strings, who began selling through Wal-Mart. "They ought to know that Wal-Mart wants to kill local businesses," he said at the time. Next to go was Gibson/Epiphone, which we never discussed, but I think their practice of selling through big-box stores (and disinclination to give him a break on inventory etc) was behind it.

Friday, he told me it was time for Fender to go. Once his current inventory of Fender merchandise is sold, he will no longer be a franchisee. He credits the new CEO at Fender, Larry somebody, who was hired away from GC, as the ultimate reason. "He wants volume, and never mind the small businesses. I've signed up with G&L." He added, "we talk about pre-CBS -- I think we'll be talking pre-Larry before long."

Now, I'm a Fender fan: meaning, I love their basses and guitar amps. I have four Precisions and three Fender amps. These remarks are not Fender product bashing, just a sharing of what a Fender dealer told me. Personally, I don't get emotionally involved in a company's corporate practices, but in this case their practices are affecting me.

I live in a small town, and I don't want a future where I have to go to Wally World or Best Buy to get a set of strings. The local music store is where I hook up with other musicians, find out about gigs, recruit drummers for bands, and hang out. I won't be hanging out at W-M, I guarantee.

Fortunately, I am at the point where I already own pretty much everything I want/need, but I wonder how long it will take the corporate hot shots to kill off the guitar/bass business.

 

[michael_atw]

These stores have been around for YEARS and are thriving. But hey, if it makes you happy to pay full retail, I say go for it. Just refrain from spreading misinformation and stereotypical Ric myths, OK?

I think your issue is you get too personal about people who you claim are "Ric-bashing" the price of the Ric. I see it in the other thread you linked.

I'm not Ric bashing - I own one. I am merely pointing out the fact of the matter that the "going rate" for a Ric is higher than you're saying it is. That's just plain observational data. It's not a bad thing, it's a good thing for them. But their business model (which was the original comment I made in regards to the difference between Ric and Fender) requires they charge a premium above Fender (which is subsequently 30% or so). If that hurts your bum, I'm sorry.

I never said the stores weren't thriving. You keep missing my point. You asked the question, "why would anyone care about what a store makes?" I answered. You seem to be a bit jaded.

 

[bassplayer8953]

I always think of it like what my grandfather told me about railroad companies, coal towns, and steel towns. The tycoons owned the stores, businesses, factories, lines, and essentially the town. Everything in the town - the rent, food, goods - was sold by the companies which hired the workers.

So what happened was you got hired, paid rent to your employer, bought food and goods from your employer. So the employer would control the price of goods and milk your paycheck out the other end, while they milked it from the front end after you punched the clock. It was a cycle of double and triple-dipping. They'd build "shacks" which were "shantytowns" near the mines and the mills.

...still going on, just not here in the US:

Tennessee Ernie Ford Sixteen Tons (with lyrics) - YouTube

 

[smcd]

I always think of it like what my grandfather told me about railroad companies, coal towns, and steel towns. The tycoons owned the stores, businesses, factories, lines, and essentially the town. Everything in the town - the rent, food, goods - was sold by the companies which hired the workers.

So what happened was you got hired, paid rent to your employer, bought food and goods from your employer. So the employer would control the price of goods and milk your paycheck out the other end, while they milked it from the front end after you punched the clock. It was a cycle of double and triple-dipping. They'd build "shacks" which were "shantytowns" near the mines and the mills.

And history unanimously looks upon those days of company towns as the "bad old days".



Here's a little insight into Chinese "factory housing".

 

[michael_atw]

...still going on, just not here in the US:

Tennessee Ernie Ford Sixteen Tons (with lyrics) - YouTube

I know that's for sure.

What's ironic is our thanks to the reforms which changed our life and gave us a chance to thrive is to reject them and to turn our back on them. I can know for sure that 80-100 years ago, if Talkbass existed, it would be dead as dust because everyone would be too busy working 70 hours a week for a bucket of frozen piss.