What has fender done? ? ?

[plankspanker13]

My Squier CV 60's J is Chinese-made, and plays & sounds great. That said, I would, as a middle-aged patriotic American, and longtime Fenderphile, be reluctant to buy something with a Fender nameplate on it that was not made in the USA. That includes the Mexican-made stuff. I also have an Indonesian-made Squier Jaguar that plays & sounds great. These are my "beater basses." I would even argue that the quality and success of the Jag were catalysts in getting the Modern Player series branded as Fender, since the MP Jag is very close to the Squier, in terms of features and layout, albeit with a heavier body, and slightly different pickup placement.

Earlier in the thread, someone mentioned that they knew of one company that did setups of their import basses here in the States. I know G&L, when I see it referred to obliquely. My first G&L was an Indonesian Tribute model. I later got into American specimens of the same model, and enjoyed the differences that a reinforced, PLEK'd neck made to the overall fit and finish. Would I own another Tribute model? Yes, in a heartbeat, but I would prefer to save up my extra money for a little while longer to get an American instrument, because it IS better, and to support American jobs.

Count me among those who think that the Modern Player series should have been Squier-branded, simply because I am old enough to remember when Fender meant American-made. You can also count me among those who applaud the massive turnaround in QC and reputation that Squier has made, over the past 5 years. I won't go out of my way to hate on Chinese Fenders, since I technically own one; the CV 60's J has "designed and backed by Fender" on the headstock, after all, and the neckplate has "Squier by Fender." I proudly rock this bass at a good number of gigs in tight places, or without raised stages. My G&L and German-made Warwick come out for the bigger gigs and stages, and I am happy with all of that. Hatred just wastes energy...but I am disappointed, just as the OP is.

 

[arsie]

It's a bit complicated. Americans have seen so many jobs moved overseas, that it's put a bad taste in many mouths. On the one hand, the cost of labor has made this attractive for some corporations. However, it has caused a major shift toward a service-based US economy. This in turn has made us dependent on overseas manufacturing, which has been known for low quality products. It's not all about pride in US products. Part of it is the low quality found in many, many products imported into the US these days.

Who made those decisions to move jobs overseas? Who approved importing those products? Not people from another country but Americans who head those companies and draft those policies.

 

[sigmafloyd]

"ok quality and good price" are not the reasons China is an economic power. Those are the results of a ruthless and aggressive agenda towards business and trade by the PRC. The parallels between today's China and 1980's Japan are very few. Japan's wages were 1/4 of US wages at the time. China's wages are 1/30th of US wages. China is run by a communist government. Unlike Japan, Chinese workers have no rights and can not vote. Japan ran it's industry on efficiency, China runs it's industry by cheap labor.

Amen

 

[michael_atw]

Who made those decisions to move jobs overseas? Who approved importing those products? Not people from another country but Americans who head those companies and draft those policies.

I don't recall seeing on that poster's response him blaming anyone. Just reflecting on the fact.

Which is why he posted - to counter the fact that Americans are consistently plump and happy about importing and buying cheap for the sake of cheap but throw a pissin' rage when their job gets outsourced. That's the ironic humor.

 

[bassplayer8953]

Who made those decisions to move jobs overseas? Who approved importing those products? Not people from another country but Americans who head those companies and draft those policies.

+1 Blaming the people overseas is wrong; they are simply working to fulfill orders. It's greedy US corporations that outsouce, in many cases keeping prices the same, putting Americans out of work & cheaping out on labor costs.

Anything that can be made offshore can be made in the US. The reasons why products are not MIA: corporate greed, plain & simple. One starts, the others rush to catch up, and entire industries disappear. Happened with electronics & computers, happened with clothing and shoes, and is in the process of happening with many other industries. There ought to be a law...but there isn't. But that's political, so we won't go there...

Fortunately enough bass manufacturers still produce in the US, so we can vote with our wallets. With other products, the choice is already made for us...

 

[Darnell Jones]

Anything that can be made offshore can be made in the US.

Not even close to true, the iPhone is a great example. It's not just cost but it was impossible to make in the US because of the lack of skilled engineers according to Steve Jobs, but what does he know, he's not even a TB member.

Let's see an American company make a gig quality $300 bass, if they can

 

[smcd]

Not even close to true, the iPhone is a great example. It's not just cost but it was impossible to make in the US because of the lack of skilled engineers according to Steve Jobs, but what does he know, he's not even a TB member.

Let's see an American company make a gig quality $300 bass, if they can

"Lack of skilled engineers"?? At what point in the manufacturing process are engineers involved?? The iphone was designed in the US by US engineers. It is manufactured in China to keep costs low.


You want to see a "gig quality" bass for $300 - sure, I'll do it. Just find me employees that will work for $38.00 a week.

 

[plankspanker13]

Let's see an American company make a gig quality $300 bass, if they can

Peavey used to, as recently as the 1990's, before outsourcing mania and competitive pressures forced them to use overseas manufacturers.

 

[bassplayer8953]

Not even close to true, the iPhone is a great example. It's not just cost but it was impossible to make in the US because of the lack of skilled engineers according to Steve Jobs, but what does he know, he's not even a TB member.

Let's see an American company make a gig quality $300 bass, if they can

Chinese "engineers" do not build the iphone, Chinese factory workers do. BTW, an Apple item that sells here for $500 costs them $65 to produce & transport to the US. And you're saying these products could not be built, at a profit, in the US? GMAFB... ...btw, as chairman of Apple, Steve Jobs was part of the problem...

I never stated that a company can build a quality bass here in the US for $300. Regarding $300 basses, this is what decent basses sold for...in the 1960's. In 2012, we've become a nation addicted to cheap junk. But Carvin can...and does...build MIA guitars and basses for $700, so building quality guitars and basses can be done...without resorting to MIM, MIK, or MI China. Unless, of course, you're Lakland, Tobias, Fender, Epiphone, Peavey, etc, etc, etc... And just as true...maybe moreso...with amps. And obviously, Carvin can stay in business, & prosper. The only thing missing at Carvin? The greed factor...

 

[audiomitch]

I'd put new Rics closer to $2k, and I'd put MIA Fender more closer to about $1200-$1300. MSRP is inflated for Fender, and Rics don't even have an MSRP that I know of.

We go through this almost daily here on TB. The price of a new Ric is around $1600. Somebody just bought one for I believe $1599 at North Coast Music. $2k for a Ric is not the going rate, and all you'd need is a quote from the many Ric dealers to get MF to price match it. But I would hope after getting a quote you'd stick with the little guy.

Ric = $1600

MIA Fender = $1300

$300 price difference. Not insignificant, but not a huge leap in price, either.

 

[michael_atw]

We go through this almost daily here on TB. The price of a new Ric is around $1600. Somebody just bought one for I believe $1599 at North Coast Music. $2k for a Ric is not the going rate, and all you'd need is a quote from the many Ric dealers to get MF to price match it. But I would hope after getting a quote you'd stick with the little guy.

Ric = $1600

MIA Fender = $1300

$300 price difference. Not insignificant, but not a huge leap in price, either.

My local music store had one for $1600. That means nothing.

Look on Ebay. $1700-$1900, depending on color I'm sure.

I doubt if it would be hard to pop on a 2012 or 2011 USA Fender for $1000 or $1100.


But I digress. The point is largely irrelevant. And I'd bet the reason "we go through this daily on TB" is because using the low-price as the gauge is never the best way to figure out the mean. The mean through Ebay looks like roughly $1750 for a new Ric. And Ebay is a very good indicator.


I see also to find that the retail for Ric as of Jan 1 2012 is $2159 for a 4003.

 

[audiomitch]

My local music store had one for $1600. That means nothing.

Look on Ebay. $1700-$1900, depending on color I'm sure.

I doubt if it would be hard to pop on a 2012 or 2011 USA Fender for $1000 or $1100.


But I degress. The point is largely irrelevant. And I'd bet the reason "we go through this daily on TB" is because using the low-price as the gauge is never the best way to figure out the mean. The mean through Ebay looks like roughly $1750 for a new Ric. And Ebay is a very good indicator.

There are 4 or 5 online/brick and mortar Ric dealers who's every day price is around $1600. That's what you can buy a brand new Ric 4003 for. That's the going rate, and a big box store will even match it.

The price is $1600, not $2k. It's not "beau-coup bucks" compared to a MIA Fender. They are only slightly more.

Here's a thread you should read - http://www.talkbass.com/forum/thread865619.html

 

[michael_atw]

There are 4 or 5 online/brick and mortar Ric dealers who's every day price is around $1600. That's what you can buy a brand new Ric 4003 for. That's the going rate, and a big box store will even match it.

The price is $1600, not $2k. It's not "beau-coup bucks" compared to a MIA Fender. They are only slightly more.

And you ignored my part where I said one could probably pick up an American Fender for $1000 or $1100 in comparison, not new but lightly used...not any more used than a wall-hanger in a music store. Whether MSRP or new "street" price, the difference is still roughly $400-$500. And when it comes to their niche in the market that's a pretty big gap (30% of the cost of a new Fender).

Also, FYI...these small brick and mortars stock Rics as loss-leaders, not profit makers. Got that info from the horse's mouth down here. They almost surely lose a little money on those sales. The place in my town didn't even stock anything worthy of hanging on a wall except Ric. A few Epi's and a couple nice acoustic brands but their 8 basses on the wall were/are bunk. He said they're hard enough to get, but he does it only because they are so hard to find and they are a draw. Next time I went back they were sold. He had 3 of them - 2 4004's and a 4003.

 

[audiomitch]

And you ignored my part where I said one could probably pick up an American Fender for $1000 or $1100 in comparison, not new but lightly used...not any more used than a wall-hanger in a music store. Whether MSRP or new "street" price, the difference is still roughly $400-$500. And when it comes to their niche in the market that's a pretty big gap (30% of the cost of a new Fender).

Also, FYI...these small brick and mortars stock Rics as loss-leaders, not profit makers. Got that info from the horse's mouth down here. They almost surely lose a little money on those sales. The place in my town didn't even stock anything worthy of hanging on a wall except Ric. A few Epi's and a couple nice acoustic brands but their 8 basses on the wall were/are bunk.

Did you bother reading the thread I linked? If you can get a 4003 for $1600 at several different places and at any time, that's how much they cost. Why on earth would you pay $400 more? It doesn't make any sense.

 

[michael_atw]

Did you bother reading the thread I linked? If you can get a 4003 for $1600 at several different places and at any time, that's how much they cost. Why on earth would you pay $400 more? It doesn't make any sense.

Ask the people on Ebay. would you like me to link listings? EVERY listing for a new Ric that has sold but one has sold for more than $1600. One went for $1930 I see, in fact. You seem quite impassioned to prove a point. I really couldn't care less, but it's pretty easy to see they are going for higher than $1600. Once again - I repeat - for some of these businesses Rics are loss-leaders. Not profit-makers.

 

[michael_atw]

Did you bother reading the thread I linked? If you can get a 4003 for $1600 at several different places and at any time, that's how much they cost. Why on earth would you pay $400 more? It doesn't make any sense.

All that thread showed me was how many people can make sale prices the going prices. If I go to the store and they have a 50% Cheez-Its sale, I don't assume the going rate is the 50%. Perhaps for that short time it is, but the going rate is what someone will pay for it, not random deals that float around. After the deal is up people will go back to paying full-price for a while. The mean looks to be $1700-$1750. Not much higher than your estimate but as I stated, still enough of a gap to be significant in the comparison between Fender and Ric.

 

[audiomitch]

All that thread showed me was how many people can make sale prices the going prices. If I go to the store and they have a 50% Cheez-Its sale, I don't assume the going rate is the 50%. Perhaps for that short time it is, but the going rate is what someone will pay for it, not random deals that float around. After the deal is up people will go back to paying full-price for a while. The mean looks to be $1700-$1750. Not much higher than your estimate but as I stated, still enough of a gap to be significant in the comparison between Fender and Ric.

I don't know how to say this any more clearly: you can buy a Ric 4003 at an authorized dealer (not eBay) for around $1600 any day of the week. That is an every day price, it is not a sale. Musicians Friend will even price match that $1600 if you show them the quote. Get it? $1600 is an every day price.

Sheesh.

 

[rickenbaker]

Sure it would be nice if i were able to buy an american made bass all the time, in fact it would be fantastic. But sadly I don't make that much money at my job and am in school so that eats up a lot of funds. So I can't buy an american made bass. Maybe once I'm out of school, but what am i to do about a bass 'til then? That's right! Get an import model I can actually afford right now and won't have to save for 5 years to get. It's not that i buy cheap because I am cheap. I buy cheap because it's what i can afford

 

[Low_End_IIA_Vic]

why are you both mad

 

[michael_atw]

I don't know how to say this any more clearly: you can buy a Ric 4003 at an authorized dealer (not eBay) for around $1600 any day of the week. That is an every day price, it is not a sale. Musicians Friend will even price match that $1600 if you show them the quote. Get it? $1600 is an every day price.

Sheesh.

"I am offering this bass at a discounted price of $1519 including the standard black molded RIC hard shell case, but not shipping costs."

North Coast Music inquiry email. At present, they are sold out of all 4003's.

Note the word "discount". They are likely using them as a loss-leader.

dis·count
verb \ˈdis-ˌkau̇nt, dis-ˈ\
transitive verb
1
a : to make a deduction from usually for cash or prompt payment <a discounted price> b : to sell or offer for sale at a discount <discounting last year's model>


I'd be interested if those are last year's models they're trying (err...have accomplished the want) to off. MF price matches them only because they say they will. They probably end up taking a loss-leader on account of that as well - but they're huge, so they don't care much (they don't sell that many Rics, and the price-match is likely a portion of an already-small number).

Going rate is not a discounted rate. Whether the discounted rate is an hour, day, week, or 6 months. Going rate is the going rate - which, according to Ebay buyers (which is a very hearty indicator of going rate), is closer to $1700-1750. It's nice one can get a Ric for $1500-$1600 but that doesn't mean the dealer is making squat.