what is pay to play?

[axelrod]

So some other of my band members are talking about putting together a show at a club that says you have to pay 175 dollars to cover sound, and the bands receive all the gate. Is this "pay to play"? I'm not interested but they seem to be. Should I try to talk them out of it? Harder.

 

[sean_on_bass]

Sounds like it. You said the word "bands," and i wonder if there is a number of bands on the bill that would be splitting that gate. If not and just you, if you know your draw(have a good draw) and what you can charge, you can maybe make a profit.

Do you see the band making a profit here?

 

[Last Rebel]

"Pay to play "

Definition -- another step in the downward spiral which could lead to playing free for exposure



IMO- unless you are sure of a big gate draw which will cover your expenses plus a profit ,I personally would pass that .

The only time I play for free is a good charity event,no problem

 

[Garret Graves]

Sounds like a potentially bad deal for you guys- the only one getting paid for sure is the sound guy. Technically Pay to Play goes- you get a chunk of stage time, but have to pay the promoter for a minimum number of tickets (promoter gets paid by you, you can then play- pay-to-play)- then you and your bandmates go out and sell the tickets to recoup the money plus a bit for profit- maybe, however many really get nothing or loose money or sell to their family. In your case, the guy is making you pay a sound guy (not an employee of his it seems), then you get to keep the money taken at the door- similar to Pay to Play for sure. Its a venue that wants live music, but won't pay a dime for it, including a sound tech- I'd pass

 

[saabfender]

Should I try to talk them out of it? Harder.

Yes, harder.

You know this is a poor idea. They don't. That's quite a spot to be in. All pay-for-play deals are scams. Maybe try that line of reasoning.

 

[ituobrey]

I only remember having to do this once; it was about nine months post-breakup. I was feeling a little lonely.

Yes, harder.

I remember this being said during the "play" section.

 

[IamGroot]

IMO, Pay for Play is the modern version of sharecropping for musicians

 

[buldog5151bass]

If you are putting out money or have to sell tickets in order to gig, it's pay to play. The only exception is if you are booking a hall yourself, so you get to keep all potential profits. It may or may not be a rip-off (but it often is).

Look at it this way. Each band is paying $175. How many bands are there? Do you think the sound guy is getting paid that much? Also, are they doing this on a slow night, where it otherwise would not be profitable for them?

 

[baileyboy]

The reason we don't do these types of gigs is more often than not the bouncers will let their friends, good looking women, etc. enter without paying the cover. In the end, the band(s) get screwed if their pay is contingent on door receipts.

The only time I play for free is a good charity event,no problem

Same here.

 

[Skillet]

The bar gets the benefit of all those drink buying customers. For free? Sounds like they're expecting a lot for nothing.

 

[WardEarth]

If you are putting out money or have to sell tickets in order to gig, it's pay to play. The only exception is if you are booking a hall yourself, so you get to keep all potential profits. It may or may not be a rip-off (but it often is).

Look at it this way. Each band is paying $175. How many bands are there? Do you think the sound guy is getting paid that much? Also, are they doing this on a slow night, where it otherwise would not be profitable for them?

It’s not clear if each band is paying the $175 or if they pay it together. If it’s the latter, I wouldn’t necessarily say it’s a bad deal. Might even say it’s a totally fair deal. The bands get the door so...i’d Say a few business minded good bands could make this their home.

Very few bands score the good shows, the rest of us have to make the best out of what’s left. And if you want to play out you’ve gotta start somewhere.

And ya I doubt this is going to happen on a Friday or Saturday night.

 

[40Hz]

It all comes down to the degree of risk sharing involved.

If you are partnering with a venue through mandatory ticket sales quotas, non-negotiable “service charges”, copaying for advertising, etc. then it’s pay-to-play no matter how you want to rationalize it. You’re sharing expenses and risk with the venue. That’s no different than the shelving fees food distributors pay (by the inch btw) to supermarkets for providing the shelf space their products are put on.

Contrast that with being hired by (not partnering with) the venue. Under that arrangement your only risk is nobody showing and you simply don’t make any money. But on a positive note, that’s your only risk. There’s no way you’ll end up owing the venue money if you don’t make any.

 

[IamGroot]

Pay to play is like your dog crapping in the house.

Once it starts, its difficult to stop.

And every other dog will do the same unless you totally eliminate all traces.

 

[buldog5151bass]

It’s not clear if each band is paying the $175 or if they pay it together. If it’s the latter, I wouldn’t necessarily say it’s a bad deal. Might even say it’s a totally fair deal. The bands get the door so...i’d Say a few business minded good bands could make this their home.

Very few bands score the good shows, the rest of us have to make the best out of what’s left. And if you want to play out you’ve gotta start somewhere.

And ya I doubt this is going to happen on a Friday or Saturday night.

Agreed.

$175 for a sound person is good - $1050 ($175 x 6) is a definite rip off.

 

[Dana R Gregory]

Tell the venue that "Homey don't play that game".

 

[Ostie]

$175 for the sound guy? That’s it, I’m quitting the bass and becoming a sound man.

 

[spaz21387]

Yeah i wouldn't do it. I stay away from pay to play shows unless its a national act. If its all locals you wont make your money back...

 

[Bodeanly]

Then you have to consider whether the bands will split the door evenly, or if it’s a “tell the door you’re there to see ______” situation. I do not miss those days. Venues need to decide whether they want to book acts or not. If they do crap like this, they don’t.

 

[addylewis]

Pay to play around here is usually a promoter giving the band 20-30 tickets to sell at £5 each (whilst the "promoter" appears to do nothing except threaten to refuse to work with them again if they don't sell AT LEAST 20 of them...) then take all the ticket money off the band and pay them nothing whatsoever UNLESS they've been able to sell the tickets for more than £5 each...in which case the band splits the difference between them (so, say they sell 20 tickets at £6 rather than the advised £5...the promoter gets £100 of that and the band gets 20 quid to split between 5 of them).

It's not paying money, but even more time and energy outside of rehearsing and travelling than you can be bothered spending on music nowadays...

 

[wolfkeller]

Ah the bs door nonsense. Lets put 10 bands on a bill, 8 suck and draw noone and 9 of them do nothing to promote the show their playing. Promoter takes 0 risk, makes the bands do his job and collects the profits for the privilege of you playing on his stage.

I new band that wants to play out MUST build a fanbase. If you can't draw a crowd you have noting. Until you CAN regularly draw a crowd and show it, you have no leverage to get a guarantee pay. Youll have to eo crap like this, or similar to help build that fan base. Everyone in the band shoud be promoting and paid FB adds are a grest way to buid fans. Pro video and photography is a must as well as a presskit

All this is assuming you want to get paid for what you do. Alot of guys are happy just to be able to play. Promoters know this a d leach on to this. There is never a shortage of bands willing to get whored out. That soundman, light guy, dj arent doing that.

We play for guaranteed (contract) money only. Iffff we do a door show (very rare) its only of its to our advantage. Example, venue will only pay $1500. We know we can pull 300 people so we take the door at $10 a person and we are NOT paying doorman, soundman or opening bands. The inflated drink prices cover that. We put OUR guy (a menacing looking guy) at the door with the little clicker to count the people. We double the pay but assume all the risk. We spend about $150 to promo the show, create our own events and push them everyday.