what is pay to play?

[addylewis]

When you pay a venue or promoter to put you on a show's card...in my experience usually it's just a way to fill pockets for promoters and venues and you very rarely if ever see a dime from doing it. Some even expect you to bring like hundreds or even thousands of people to the show too and only then you might get a very small percentage. Usually the shows are thrown together with little promo. Case and point...no to pay-to-play!

I've had numerous arguments with people about this - they normally go something like this:

Them: "How is a promoter supposed to make any money if they let the band take it?"
Me: "I couldn't care less if the promoter dies homeless on the street because of it...promoters are supposed to get arses on seats or what the hell are they doing getting us to do the legwork? We've spent enough time and money on rehearsals and equipment without spending more on selling bloody tickets and travel to/from the venue and not even getting a chip butty for it"
Them: "How is a promoter supposed to fill a venue for a band with no exposure?"
Me: "How are the band supposed to fill a venue they've been approached by when they can't even get 10 people down to their FREE gigs?"
Them: "Erm…"

It's a joke...I came to the conclusion years ago that no matter how many times you advertise your gigs to your friends on your Facebook, no matter how many Facebook EVENTS you invite everyone to - nobody except the people in the band give a monkey's toss about what your doing, and will never even acknowledge you...so I've cut back to sharing the events on my wall and nothing else with the number of gigs in the last 10 years I've invited people to (having to click a helluva lot) and had no acknowledgement of. It get's better, where I work nobody gives a poopie about music - or are working when I'm gigging...

If I could go back in time I'd tell myself "Put that shagin' guitar down, forget college and uni, and get a job...college and uni only proves to YOU that you've got a brain, it doesn't make any difference with getting a job -life's a bunch of crap, and you never get back from others the effort you put in yourself so don't bother - just try not to piss anyone off during the time your alive, then die..."

 

[Tim Schnautz]

I've also heard a 'pay to play' is the club will sell YOU tickets, for "x" amount of bucks. Then YOU take those tickets and try to sell them for "XX" amount of bucks, and that's your profit. what you don't sell, there's no refund.

Another is like the exposure deal. You'd be amazed how much money a band has to pay to be on the stage and perform at Ozfest.

 

[buldog5151bass]

When I was doing originals, back in the Paleolithic era, we would partner with one or two other bands that we knew would work. Rent a hall on an off night, pool together resources so you have one good backline, and all the best band has to do is plug into the amps/PA. If need be, you can run sound for each other. This way you get to play longer, and have a better chance of making money.

 

[wolfkeller]

These opinions and accounts of situations are really helpful, ie, good ammunition in talking these bums out of it. I already believe it is a losing prop for this group, but they really want gigs. We will continue to get them in other, slower, ways. Thanks everyone, as usual a good variety of opinions, but the winning vote is NO. I'm not a desperate punk kid, well maybe a punk, and neither is my band, although we range widely in age, both physically, musically, and mentally, so we don't need any extra poopiee, but I'm glad they are so enthusiastic to get out there with our new material. Slow down my friends...that's what I think I will say, and also, "well who you gonna get to play bass?"
ps. $175 total for sound person

No one pays$175 for sound. Greedy bastids

 

[TAZ]

Pay to play has it place and purpose. Basically you are paying the venue's operational overhead for the night; staff. utilities, insurance, etc... by selling tickets and cash it over to the venue. The incentive is you can sell over the minimum ticket sales to make a profit on your gig. Typically you are the opening act and your sales cover the headliner that gets their contract price but could not match it with sales so the venue adds more openers to increase revenue to cover expenses. If you need exposure, this is how you buy it with various degrees of return on your investment.

If you throw enough money into it, you can be the headliner in any venue.

 

[wolfkeller]

In Detroit, theyll have you sell, say 20 tix for $10 a piece, hand them over $200 and you get your 20 min slot. Sell more than 20, keep the money. I did this once so we could buy a backdrop. Generally, they place will give the bands the door or a % of it to split up.

 

[socialleper]

So some other of my band members are talking about putting together a show at a club that says you have to pay 175 dollars to cover sound, and the bands receive all the gate. Is this "pay to play"? I'm not interested but they seem to be. Should I try to talk them out of it? Harder.

Covering the operations costs of a show that you or someone else in the band is putting on isn't pay to play.
P2P is when you have to pay a venue upfront just to be there, and better slots cost more money. Or when you have a ticket contract to sell X number of tickets or pay the remaining amount out of your pocket. It is an unfortunate side effect of there being too many bands and too few venues that aren't able to bring in an audience on a regular basis.
Technically, large tour acts cover the operational costs of the venues they are playing in, it is just the scale and details are different. Many venues, large and small, are now also taking a piece of the band's merch sales.

 

[Pacodelivery]

This is a strange thread. I don’t know where all of you who are critiquing this situation play shows but I’ve been playing shows all over the east coast and booking shows and half a dozen clubs in Baltimore for years and one of three things always happens:

A) you get a guarantee
B) you get a cut of the door take, but the house also takes their cut. It’s either a set amount, or a percentage, or a mix of both.
C) you pay a set fee decided ahead of time for the house and then you take any and all profit you make after paying people for sound, working the door, etc.

I’ve never heard of a normal music venue that didn’t take some of the money people pay at the door or in presales.

 

[Pacodelivery]

@axelrod how many people fit in the venue? For a venue that can fit over 150 people in a part of an urban area that people like to go out in that’s a perfectly reasonable house cost, in my experience. I would be hesitant if the venue wants it upfront if they’re an established venue, but otherwise that’s fine.

Figure out how many people you expect to come and set the ticket price accordingly. For instance, if 100 people show up and each pay $10 you’d make $825. If you all are the headliner I’d pay yourself at least $300 then pay out other acts and the person who made the poster, etc.

 

[GBBSbassist]

Pay to play is mostly typical of crap venues that have no appeal other than live music.

Avoid places like that. Let them close down due to poor management.

 

[Bass Viking]

How many people are going to buy a ticket to see a bar band?

 

[NOVAX]

I've done it before. But, I was on drugs, and drinking to excess, and constantly making bad decisions.

 

[micguy]

I play in churches as a volunteer. I almost certainly have a better sound person than you’ll get. I get to play to between 400 and 1800 people (between 2 services) on a weekend - depends on which church I’m playing that weekend. It costs me gass money, strings, and that’s about it. Your gig will probably cost you more, you’ll most likely play to fewer people, and your gear will smell like spilled beer.

I’ll be getting up about the time you go to bed. OK, that’s a wash.

Is it worth it? Only you can decide.

 

[klejst]

I've had numerous arguments with people about this - they normally go something like this:

Them: "How is a promoter supposed to make any money if they let the band take it?"
Me: "I couldn't care less if the promoter dies homeless on the street because of it...promoters are supposed to get arses on seats or what the hell are they doing getting us to do the legwork? We've spent enough time and money on rehearsals and equipment without spending more on selling bloody tickets and travel to/from the venue and not even getting a chip butty for it"
Them: "How is a promoter supposed to fill a venue for a band with no exposure?"
Me: "How are the band supposed to fill a venue they've been approached by when they can't even get 10 people down to their FREE gigs?"
Them: "Erm…"

It's a joke...I came to the conclusion years ago that no matter how many times you advertise your gigs to your friends on your Facebook, no matter how many Facebook EVENTS you invite everyone to - nobody except the people in the band give a monkey's toss about what your doing, and will never even acknowledge you...so I've cut back to sharing the events on my wall and nothing else with the number of gigs in the last 10 years I've invited people to (having to click a helluva lot) and had no acknowledgement of. It get's better, where I work nobody gives a poopie about music - or are working when I'm gigging...

If I could go back in time I'd tell myself "Put that shaggin' guitar down, forget college and uni, and get a job...college and uni only proves to YOU that you've got a brain, it doesn't make any difference with getting a job -life's a bunch of crap, and you never get back from others the effort you put in yourself so don't bother - just try not to piss anyone off during the time your alive, then die..."

Very true words, I have lived similar to that as well. Having been in original bands in the past I too found that no matter how hard you work at it these days it seems like it is never enough. Not to mention the music scene and if you want to go farther the music industry has changed quite a bit from the last say 15-20 years? Promoters who "love" what they do under it all are just looking to get their names out there and make that money just as well. I once played a show where as soon as the first band started playing the promoter took all the door money paid some to the venue and then just left...yeah. It was a good turn out too where (not that bands should expect a lot really) but the bands on the card should of got some sort of payment. That is just what it is these days. That is why I live by the cardinal rule of just have fun...if a record label comes knocking then possibly let them in at that time but then again don't hold your breath.

Even if you do not become a big rock star or even a regional or local star at least you can say you had one hell of a ride with it.

 

[MordBass]

Here's my take on this because it happens in our area too.

A venue is a place that exists for the sake of performances. Its reasonable that things are worked out both ways when setting up a show. The venue will want a guarantee because they need to cover their employees and costs.

A bar is open daily anyways and should have its own guests. They are hiring you to entertain these guests. Its a value proposition for people to visit their bar instead of a competitors.
Sound is on them. If they want to have live music, they need a PA system. It is what it is. Same as their door guy. Its a bar.. they have a liquor license.. its on them to be staffed for their normal operations anyways.

When it comes to paying to play.... im good with it if its an actual value. For instance, if its a national act and the place is gonna have 500 people that are into your style of music, and you can keep 100% of your merch.
But, I have to say that its really not fair when its the venue selling the slots. Id much rather just hit up the touring act online and arrange it with them. Its their draw.

 

[MichelD]

Pay to play for exposure?

I'm a retired mariner and commercial fisherman. I learned in that game that you can die from exposure.

 

[addylewis]

Very true words, I have lived similar to that as well. Having been in original bands in the past I too found that no matter how hard you work at it these days it seems like it is never enough. Not to mention the music scene and if you want to go farther the music industry has changed quite a bit from the last say 15-20 years? Promoters who "love" what they do under it all are just looking to get their names out there and make that money just as well. I once played a show where as soon as the first band started playing the promoter took all the door money paid some to the venue and then just left...yeah. It was a good turn out too where (not that bands should expect a lot really) but the bands on the card should of got some sort of payment. That is just what it is these days. That is why I live by the cardinal rule of just have fun...if a record label comes knocking then possibly let them in at that time but then again don't hold your breath.

Even if you do not become a big rock star or even a regional or local star at least you can say you had one hell of a ride with it.

I know what you mean...but in reality at least half the places locally have this "sell tickets" thing and I've never played at any of them (bar 1) and it can get tedious playing the same local places all the time...

I have a policy of not paying to watch bands I've never heard of...last time I walked past a venue with a gig on (one of those I never go into) I asked the guy outside how much it was to get in - £8...I'm sorry but I'm not risking it lol

 

[Waltsdog]

So some other of my band members are talking about putting together a show at a club that says you have to pay 175 dollars to cover sound, and the bands receive all the gate. Is this "pay to play"? I'm not interested but they seem to be. Should I try to talk them out of it? Harder.

OP, as someone playing in an originals band who also books shows, this is not an unusual situation. With the caveat that the $175 is split between bands, i.e. you're paying $175 between all the bands to cover the cost of the venue and sound for the whole night. You take 100% of the door money and split it between bands (or just yourself if there are no other bands) how you see fit.
This isn't play to play, it's standard for most smaller bars and venues putting on smaller originals bands as below. The only thing to be aware of is that the $175 is kinda high to pay for a sound person, the charge here from all the venues is about $75.

If you're being asked to kick in $175 per band on a multi-band bill then that's something to laugh and walk away from.

This is a strange thread. I don’t know where all of you who are critiquing this situation play shows but I’ve been playing shows all over the east coast and booking shows and half a dozen clubs in Baltimore for years and one of three things always happens:

A) you get a guarantee
B) you get a cut of the door take, but the house also takes their cut. It’s either a set amount, or a percentage, or a mix of both.
C) you pay a set fee decided ahead of time for the house and then you take any and all profit you make after paying people for sound, working the door, etc.

I’ve never heard of a normal music venue that didn’t take some of the money people pay at the door or in presales.

100% agree with this, I suspect a lot of people on here are in covers/functions bands and don't have to deal with anything other than options A or B. Unkown originals almost always get the C deal

 

[five7]

We do several shows like this a year for exposure. Yes, we are an original band. Cheaper than renting a room, a sound and lighting system and we play in front of 500.

 

[buldog5151bass]

It all depends on how many people you draw. There is a small town theater near us (capacity 500). If two or three bands can fill it, you could make decent money.