If you're just a hobbyist, pay to play (or some variation thereof) is fine. It's just like a lot of other hobbies. I used to race cars--I didn't get paid, ever. In fact, I had to put out a lot of cash every race: entry fee, racing fuel, hotel, food, gas, tolls, parts, etc. It was expensive (and massively time- and energy-consuming), but it was a blast, and the only way I was going to experience that blast was to pay for it...
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what is pay to play?
- Thread starter axelrod
- Start date
Such is the life of an originals band (not sure if that's what your band is, but based upon the multi-band setup, I'm going to take a leap of faith and guess that you are). $175 for the "sound guy" isn't unheard of around here, kinda steep, but not unheard of - I'm going to assume its not per band - because nobody should be paying that kind of money for a sound guy, and if they are, I'm moving to your town and running sound lol.
My band has played for a percentage of the door many times - We normally come out with a couple hundred dollars (not great, but for an originals band, not horrible either). Worst is when you're the only band that draws. You hope the other bands bring fans who end up also liking your band, and they bring 1 or 2 people.
Its hard to find venues to play original music, its hard to get people to come out and its even harder to find fans who will come out religiously to all of your shows. A lot of people don't put in the effort.
At least with this, you don't have a 'promoter' siphoning off the top. We have a guy here who consistently takes $3 per ticket and his idea of promotion is a couple of Facebook and Instagram posts. Some times as a band it feels like the Flintstones where the pterodactyl is doing a nasty job and says "meh, its a living". Unfortunately, end of the day, there aren't many venues, or live music fans anymore. It puts original bands in a very weak negotiating position. If you're a 3 set cover band, a lot of the above does not apply - I've always been able to negotiate a lot better when we're doing covers sets; but we're not a cover band and that isn't what we want to get on stage to do.
Good luck building your fan base so you don't have to do these kind of gigs and if you uncover the secret - let me know, because I'd like to know it lol
My band has played for a percentage of the door many times - We normally come out with a couple hundred dollars (not great, but for an originals band, not horrible either). Worst is when you're the only band that draws. You hope the other bands bring fans who end up also liking your band, and they bring 1 or 2 people.
Its hard to find venues to play original music, its hard to get people to come out and its even harder to find fans who will come out religiously to all of your shows. A lot of people don't put in the effort.
At least with this, you don't have a 'promoter' siphoning off the top. We have a guy here who consistently takes $3 per ticket and his idea of promotion is a couple of Facebook and Instagram posts. Some times as a band it feels like the Flintstones where the pterodactyl is doing a nasty job and says "meh, its a living". Unfortunately, end of the day, there aren't many venues, or live music fans anymore. It puts original bands in a very weak negotiating position. If you're a 3 set cover band, a lot of the above does not apply - I've always been able to negotiate a lot better when we're doing covers sets; but we're not a cover band and that isn't what we want to get on stage to do.
Good luck building your fan base so you don't have to do these kind of gigs and if you uncover the secret - let me know, because I'd like to know it lol
This is predatory practice which will NOT benefit your band. This would work for an established act with a guaranteed fan base, people who are not your friends or family paying to see your band because they like it. I have never talked to someone with a band at your level who payed to play and didn't regret it.
Yeah I forget that about how different playing originals is from playing covers.
I actually really like the arrangement the OP posted about. I book most often at the Windup space in Baltimore. The house cost is around $150-$200 depending on the night, and it caps at 220 so on a great night we could have 200 people walking in the door.
Even if just, say 120 show up, I still cleared over a grand on the show, so all the bands can make a couple hundred bucks at least.
I actually really like the arrangement the OP posted about. I book most often at the Windup space in Baltimore. The house cost is around $150-$200 depending on the night, and it caps at 220 so on a great night we could have 200 people walking in the door.
Even if just, say 120 show up, I still cleared over a grand on the show, so all the bands can make a couple hundred bucks at least.
OP, as someone playing in an originals band who also books shows, this is not an unusual situation. With the caveat that the $175 is split between bands, i.e. you're paying $175 between all the bands to cover the cost of the venue and sound for the whole night. You take 100% of the door money and split it between bands (or just yourself if there are no other bands) how you see fit.
This isn't play to play, it's standard for most smaller bars and venues putting on smaller originals bands as below. The only thing to be aware of is that the $175 is kinda high to pay for a sound person, the charge here from all the venues is about $75.
If you're being asked to kick in $175 per band on a multi-band bill then that's something to laugh and walk away from.
100% agree with this, I suspect a lot of people on here are in covers/functions bands and don't have to deal with anything other than options A or B. Unkown originals almost always get the C deal
I can't add any advice more then what has been said.
So, I tell my son's friends band story.
These kids had a huge house party following. So they got involved in a play to pay gig, the ticket selling kind.
Sold lots of tickets. Played the gig.
The venue said they had never seen that many folks show up for that kind of thing and walk with that much cold hard cash.
One of the cats running the venue kinda implied that the venue got played/used. We just laughed and said, "Pay to play, ha, we came to play to get paid."
So, I tell my son's friends band story.
These kids had a huge house party following. So they got involved in a play to pay gig, the ticket selling kind.
Sold lots of tickets. Played the gig.
The venue said they had never seen that many folks show up for that kind of thing and walk with that much cold hard cash.
One of the cats running the venue kinda implied that the venue got played/used. We just laughed and said, "Pay to play, ha, we came to play to get paid."
That's not pay to play. That's renting a venue and paying for live sound. It's a perfectly normal expense if you are the ones throwing a gig.
Pay to play is when the band has to buy out all the tickets to the event, and then sell the tickets themselves. With pay to play, the band basically becomes the ticket agency with a monopoly on most or all of the available tickets to the event. When it comes to entrance fees, it's zero risk, zero investment for the club (they "sell out" every show, regardless of how many people actually show up), and total risk, total investment for the band. Pay-to-play is ultimate dog-eat-dog local-live-entertainment-industry survival-of-the-fittest capitalism in action. It's possible to do well with pay-to-play if you are the "best of the best" – a hot band with a great local draw...but most of the times, the bands lose out with these sorts of arrangements, because they just don't have the draw needed to sell all their tickets for decent prices. And if you are the kind of band that can do well in a pay-to-play scenario, chances are you won't be doing a pay-to-play arrangement for long. The specific clubs that popularized pay-to-play were, quite literally, mob-associated clubs. They weren't going to do anything that wasn't reliably profitable to themselves – and that means always operating on a tilted board. So if you're hot, they'll likely arrange another deal with you, and leave the pay-to-play arrangements for more risky acts.
One OK thing about pay-to-play is that any band who could scare up the cash to buy the tickets out could have a gig in a "hot" venue. You could be as weird, freaky, out there, and non-commercial as you wanted, and play the same exact stage as bands who were becoming, or who already were, "pros." The owners didn't care as much about "curating" their acts, since they knew all tickets would be bought by the bands anyhow.
What you are talking about is basically just renting use of a P.A.-equipped venue. In which case $175 for the venue, and you get the entire door take, is fairly reasonable, if it's the size of club that you need, and you can draw what you need, to cover the $175 and then some. A cut of the bar can help enormously too.
Pay to play is when the band has to buy out all the tickets to the event, and then sell the tickets themselves. With pay to play, the band basically becomes the ticket agency with a monopoly on most or all of the available tickets to the event. When it comes to entrance fees, it's zero risk, zero investment for the club (they "sell out" every show, regardless of how many people actually show up), and total risk, total investment for the band. Pay-to-play is ultimate dog-eat-dog local-live-entertainment-industry survival-of-the-fittest capitalism in action. It's possible to do well with pay-to-play if you are the "best of the best" – a hot band with a great local draw...but most of the times, the bands lose out with these sorts of arrangements, because they just don't have the draw needed to sell all their tickets for decent prices. And if you are the kind of band that can do well in a pay-to-play scenario, chances are you won't be doing a pay-to-play arrangement for long. The specific clubs that popularized pay-to-play were, quite literally, mob-associated clubs. They weren't going to do anything that wasn't reliably profitable to themselves – and that means always operating on a tilted board. So if you're hot, they'll likely arrange another deal with you, and leave the pay-to-play arrangements for more risky acts.
One OK thing about pay-to-play is that any band who could scare up the cash to buy the tickets out could have a gig in a "hot" venue. You could be as weird, freaky, out there, and non-commercial as you wanted, and play the same exact stage as bands who were becoming, or who already were, "pros." The owners didn't care as much about "curating" their acts, since they knew all tickets would be bought by the bands anyhow.
What you are talking about is basically just renting use of a P.A.-equipped venue. In which case $175 for the venue, and you get the entire door take, is fairly reasonable, if it's the size of club that you need, and you can draw what you need, to cover the $175 and then some. A cut of the bar can help enormously too.
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You said "bands".
How many are actually playing and is everyone paying their own $175 for sound? If so, that is expensive sound!
Splitting the gate? If your band is the big draw, you are supplying the audience and they are getting the benefit of your audience and the gate split.
No, it is not pay to play. It is "pay the soundman". I have gigged at venues where you get the choice of running the sound yourself or paying for a soundman.
Actually pay2play might actually be a better deal than some some of the horrific contracts signed by up and coming bands in the 60's and 70's. Worse case a bunch of your friends and family get to buy the tickets you've discounted to recoup some money and a good time is had by all. If it was one of the legendary LA venues ( been years since I lived in LA) you get to tell your kids you played there when they run a classic rock documentary on Netflix .
$175 for esentually a PA rental, especially if a sound man is provided, is worth every cent IMO. We contract sound companies and trust me it really cuts down on the time to screw around setting it up,and tear down. From a Man hour perspective, @ $175 it’s a bargain.
A pay to play would be if you had to sell x amount of of tickets your own tickets, and then split that revenue with the establishment for the privilege of providing customers to the establishment to buy their food and booze with out paying you out of their pocket. “Pay To Play” Is rip off and to be avoided at all cost.
So yes we are all originals, not particularly hip, and range in age from serious hobbiest to frustrated professional. Every body has jobs and don't expect to get paid for music. We want to play out to show what we have come up with musically and to have fun. There are other ways to get gigs around here, and we have found a few, but for some reason the other guys want to push for more and think this 175 for soundman, and we supply our band and any other bands we want to add to the show, set the price and take the gate would be a way to do that. We have a very very small following and would not come out ahead I am sure. The money doesn't matter, it is the principle of paying to play in a bar that bugs me. We have gotten on shows with other bands and didn't make any money, but had fun jamming' and didn't have to pay. These are decent bars for the most part.
I think I know this promoter. Is his name Ben Dover by chance? 
I play in church too. They pass the plate for tips every Sunday, but I never see any of it. I think we're getting ripped off by management.
This is from the bar's booker:
"For the show, you'd have control over the door charge, show times, etc. If you are looking to add local artists to the lineup you have full control over that as well and would be responsible for reaching out and adding artists to the lineup. We'll provide door staff, security and a sound engineer for the show which will be covered by the production cost. The production cost to book the venue starts at $175 for the night + $25 for each additional band over the third in the lineup and you'll receive 100% of the door sales. We’ll need a deposit of 50% of the production amount paid upfront to confirm the date with the remaining half due at load-in on the day of the show. "
"For the show, you'd have control over the door charge, show times, etc. If you are looking to add local artists to the lineup you have full control over that as well and would be responsible for reaching out and adding artists to the lineup. We'll provide door staff, security and a sound engineer for the show which will be covered by the production cost. The production cost to book the venue starts at $175 for the night + $25 for each additional band over the third in the lineup and you'll receive 100% of the door sales. We’ll need a deposit of 50% of the production amount paid upfront to confirm the date with the remaining half due at load-in on the day of the show. "
