What is trolling?

[Dr. Cheese]

Lately, a lot of old threads I started have been searched and discussion started again about the topic. One thread feature some rough interaction between me and another member over what I saw as trolling. If I remember corrrectly, we talked privately and came to an understanding.

That brings me to my topic, trolling. In my opinion, trolling is when one deliberately goes against the consensus of a thread just to get a reaction. Here is an example: a few years ago, Ronnie James Dio died and there was a tribute thread in his honor. I read the thread and learned more about an artist who I only knew of through old videos and I learned about him and his variety of Metal. I left the thread more knowledgeable. I contrast this to when Prince died and the great majority mourned his passing, but some people took great pleasure in saying how they disliked him or recounted stories they were negative. Of course, their defense was that they had a right to express their opinions.

My question is when does opinion turn into trolling? I feel that we should look at the tenor of a thread. Is it a commemoration or is it a genuine discussion? People posting might want to ask themselves if they really want to take part in a discussion or do they just want to toss a stink bomb?

The bottom line is that I think as a community, we should strive for intelligent conversation instead of simply stirring up controversy, I know it can be hard to know where to draw the line.

 

[OldShark]

I agree 100% BTW But have added some words that changes the nuance.

*For the avoid I'm taking a contrary position to provoke discussion and thought

That's a relevant difference! The notion of "you would not dare to say this to me face to face" commonly seems to relate to snarky or dumb remarks, but frankly, I might just be too shy or too respectful or too afraid to say something in person, and in that respect the internet is not a bad thing.

 

[_Some Dude]

I hear you. But I think there's a qualitative difference between the few big, life-changing inventions and the many smaller inventions that make incremental changes.

For example, there's life before nuclear weapons and there's life after nuclear weapons. There's life before antibiotics and there's life after antibiotics. I think the internet falls into this category of big, society-warping inventions. You can't really put can openers, automatic garage doors and glow-in-the-dark shoelaces in the same category. Cars were a significant advance, but people were already using animals and technology to get from A to B faster than they could on foot. So I'd say cars were an incremental advance, while the internet has altered everything about our lives in ways we don't even fully understand yet.

I would agree with that.

However, I think those born in this world will adapt. Like us with nuclear weapons or antibiotics, they don't have a choice.

 

[darev]

I wish it wasn’t true but I say stupid things from time to time on TB. Every time I visit I am comforted to read that I am in good company.

Hi everybody, I heard from this forum that soaking my strings in carrot juice not only extends their life, but produces a sound that is the best for metal...yet after trying it, I'm just noticing a carrot juice residue that seems to be having opposite effect

Boil not soak.

also: Grice’s razor: Address what the speaker actually meant, instead of addressing the literal meaning of what they actually said.

You may not like those strings because you feel that the ratio of alloys used is incorrect vs the ratio of nickel used by your favorite strings but we were talking about Ween.

Trolling does happen occasionally and the moderation here is very good. Ironically for a discussion board designed for musicians I find wayward comments made here trend less towards trolling and more towards tone deaf.

 

[KenSmithFan]

I think trolling begins with disrespect. Using you example of Prince, I just don't like his music. I kept thinking that I was missing something, but I went back and listened to a bunch of his tunes and I just don't like them. That's my opinion. Someone else likes him? None of my business. However, if I denigrate him as a person, or you for liking him, that's disrespectful and trolling.

It's like the controversy over relic instruments. Some people just don't have the capacity to understand that when they talk about "stolen valor" or "poser" that they are insulting the people who own them. These people are fellow forum members and it's extremely disrespectful when you denigrate them for their choice of finish. It's just rude and uncalled for.

Also, the internet has made us forget that just because we have an opinion, doesn't mean we need to voice our opinion. Being respectful of other people's feelings is a sign of a mature, respectful adult. It doesn't make you strong to insult others, any kindergartener can do that.

 

[logdrum]

About the saying nice things only , it has actually dampened critical thinking discussions. Old people are just more sensitive than young people and sometimes if it is not warm and fuzzy to them they will say they are being trolled. You can always block people that pushed some of your buttons and they probably they did not even mean too and just expressing their opinions. Sure classify them as trolls for yourself but they may not be others.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

I think trolling begins with disrespect. Using you example of Prince, I just don't like his music. I kept thinking that I was missing something, but I went back and listened to a bunch of his tunes and I just don't like them. That's my opinion. Someone else likes him? None of my business. However, if I denigrate him as a person, or you for liking him, that's disrespectful and trolling.

It's like the controversy over relic instruments. Some people just don't have the capacity to understand that when they talk about "stolen valor" or "poser" that they are insulting the people who own them. These people are fellow forum members and it's extremely disrespectful when you denigrate them for their choice of finish. It's just rude and uncalled for.

Also, the internet has made us forget that just because we have an opinion, doesn't mean we need to voice our opinion. Being respectful of other people's feelings is a sign of a mature, respectful adult. It doesn't make you strong to insult others, any kindergartener can do that.

You post is at the heart of what I tried to say.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

About the saying nice things only , it has actually dampened critical thinking discussions. Old people are just more sensitive than young people and sometimes if it is not warm and fuzzy to them they will say they are being trolled. You can always block people that pushed some of your buttons and they probably they did not even mean too and just expressing their opinions. Sure classify them as trolls for yourself but they may not be others.

A minority of people enjoy being annoying. If it were anywhere near the majority, I would have left TB alone years ago.

 

[Micha84]

Trolling is never a true expression of opinion.

It is not always easy to spot, at least not without a certain amount of doubt, but when uncertain, I just ignore posts that I suspect might be trolling.

 

[bucephylus]

Agreed. It seems that unfortunately we as a species are not able to handle technology like the internet, which magnifies and reinforces idiocy and bad behavior. As much as I enjoy this forum and other online sites, I am forced to conclude that humanity would be better off if the internet had never been invented.

While doing my graduate research in the Integrated Circuit Lab (ICL) at Xerox PARC, which paid for my graduate degree, I had occasional to share the lunch table with members of the Computer Science Lab (CSL). Those folks were running the ARPANet, which later became the Internet.

The CSL staff included not only programmers, but also Anthropologists, Sociologists, and Psychologists; who were examining human behavior on the network. At the time, due to the weapons technology aspects of the network, they were using a protocol termed User Anonymity; in which, network administrators owned the various interest groups / servers with the associated distribution lists. One could add themselves to an interest group or remove oneself from an interest group to receive or not receive information. But, it was not possible to see who was on the DL.

The point was to use the network for information access and sharing, on a qualified basis.

At the same time, they were studying how humans interact on the Network. I recall there was unanimous consensus that User Anonymity was required, not just for information protection, but due to human behavioral tendencies.

When the Clinton administration opened up the ARPANet, those scientists strongly and unanimously recommended that User Anonymity remain a core construct. Certain Silicon Valley entrepreneurs argued that the construct limited business opportunities. So, the well researched CSL recommendation was rejected.

We are living with the consequences.

 

[tpaul]

While doing my graduate research in the Integrated Circuit Lab (ICL) at Xerox PARC, which paid for my graduate degree, I had occasional to share the lunch table with members of the Computer Science Lab (CSL). Those folks were running the ARPANet, which later became the Internet.

The CSL staff included not only programmers, but also Anthropologists, Sociologists, and Psychologists; who were examining human behavior on the network. At the time, due to the weapons technology aspects of the network, they were using a protocol termed User Anonymity; in which, network administrators owned the various interest groups / servers with the associated distribution lists. One could add themselves to an interest group or remove oneself from an interest group to receive or not receive information. But, it was not possible to see who was on the DL.

The point was to use the network for information access and sharing, on a qualified basis.

At the same time, they were studying how humans interact on the Network. I recall there was unanimous consensus that User Anonymity was required, not just for information protection, but due to human behavioral tendencies.

When the Clinton administration opened up the ARPANet, those scientists strongly and unanimously recommended that User Anonymity remain a core construct. Certain Silicon Valley entrepreneurs argued that the construct limited business opportunities. So, the well researched CSL recommendation was rejected.

We are living with the consequences.

Thank you for this post.

I think if it were just innate human tendencies toward bad behavior, that would be difficult enough to deal with. But we have social media algorithms that feed our worst instincts with more and more of whatever makes us angriest. This makes a lot of money for the billionaires who are earning with every click, but the result is a deeply divided society where each side lives in an echo chamber that constantly reinforces their existing biases while filtering out opposing views.

When I was growing up, there was a saying I used to hear a lot: "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." This was supposed to encapsulate a core tennet of democracy. I don't hear anyone saying that anymore, and I think we've lost something important along the way.

 

[S-Bigbottom]

It's about intent, not just going against the consensus. If we were in the SharpCat appreciation thread (I can dream!) and everyone was "SharpCat is great", "SharpCat rocks", etc and someone came in to say "SharpCat

 

[SharpCat]

 

[definenredefine]

Asking yourself what are you seeking to achieve before you go negative makes a lot of sense to me.

That's what I'm trying to do. It's just unfortunate that it took me this long in life to start asking.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

That's what I'm trying to do. It's just unfortunate that it took me this long in life to start asking.

You can’t change the past. Apply your wisdom to the future.

 

[GR7G5TER]

My understanding is that back in the early internet days, "trolling" wasn't synonymous with being a jerk, which is the current definition. It was originally about posting silly questions or observations in an online forum that those "in the know" would recognize as silly, but would prompt those "not in the know" to jump in and respond to as if they were serious. So the victim of the troll was the person who responded to the troll's post as if it were real, while not realizing that in taking the question seriously in the first place, they were being laughed at by those around them who are "in the know".

Or one can respond to the troll with additional non-serious troll questions/suggestions/observations that showed that you too were in the know.

But obviously any definition this complex is going to be watered down over time, so now trolling it's just being mean on the internet.


Hypothetical Talkbass troll, using the original definition:

Hi everybody, I heard from this forum that soaking my strings in carrot juice not only extends their life, but produces a sound that is the best for metal...yet after trying it, I'm just noticing a carrot juice residue that seems to be having opposite effect...any suggestions on how I did this wrong? Please help because I'm getting extremely frustrated and bass strings are expensive".

A method of trolling that i recently learned about, it's used when you ask a question on a forum or something like reddit but you don't get any answers. You use a 2nd account to give a really poopie answer and you're more likely to have people wade in correct you, thus getting the answer!

 

[Winslow]

Hi everybody, I heard from this forum that soaking my strings in carrot juice not only extends their life, but produces a sound that is the best for metal...yet after trying it, I'm just noticing a carrot juice residue that seems to be having opposite effect...any suggestions on how I did this wrong? Please help because I'm getting extremely frustrated and bass strings are expensive".

What brand of carrot juice? The cheap stuff is garbage, and doesn't work. You should only ever use 100% Peruvian High-Altitude carrot juice. It's harvested from terraced fields planted at a minimum of 1000 feet above sea level. (The really primo stuff is ~1500 ft. though, so it's worth looking for.) Any carrots growing below that are relegated only to feeding livestock, and maybe in some domestic soups, but never for bass string soaking purposes.

 

[60bass]

There's a reason why for a very long time now those of us who have been around the internet since before there were web browsers came up with the statement "please don't feed the trolls". Back then everything was text based. We had what was called Usenet basically nicknamed news groups they were like chats except they were text-based no graphical user interfaces we would just ignore the trolls and move on.

Of course back then they were a different kind of user than the typical basement dweller Hit and run troll we see nowadays. They were real professionals back then .

Many of what we called real trolls were people who would form a group together go to a USENET Newsgroup to join as members and become accepted as part of the community. They would stay there as long as it took for them to become top contributors and well-known posters in the community.

Then there would always be a trigger phrase. someone would post it and the attacks would begin. I actually saw many really informative newsgroups get completely shut down because of that. Usually the group would be something like cat lovers and everybody would join and once they were accepted as well liked and well-known members of the group you would see a phrase something to the point of. " Hey everyone, does anybody have a good recipe for dead cat soap" that would trigger the onslaught.

And when I say onslaught I mean it. these guys were computer geeks of the highest order back then and real keyboard warriors. it might only be three or four of them but they could spam a News group completely out of existence with troll postings so much so that no one could get anything done. It's much easier nowadays to ignore the trolls. I just block them as I don't have time for them anymore. I honestly have to laugh at how pathetic they are considering what I've seen in my decades on the internet.

The internet has always been a dark and evil place they talk about the dark web and yep it's still around. My advice to people is to look at the internet super highway as if you were driving on a one-way road going the wrong way. there are many people out to get you. Some intentionally and some by accident Always keep your eyes open and look for an exit.

 

[beaglesandbass]

My question is when does opinion turn into trolling? I feel that we should look at the tenor of a thread. Is it a commemoration or is it a genuine discussion? People posting might want to ask themselves if they really want to take part in a discussion or do they just want to toss a stink bomb?

While on TB, the only definition that really matters is the one that's spelled out in the rules, which it seems like most people are on board with.

Trolling is defined as making inflammatory posts to inflame others, while lacking in substance pertaining to the thread topic.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

That definition is broad enough to drive a truck through it and in all fairness, that is probably the best anyone can do. Often, it is not hard to write a post that is meant to inflame that is arguably relevant.

 

[beaglesandbass]

IMO it has to be broad because there are so many possibilities with “what if” scenarios on the internet and how people post. That’s also why there’s a line in that rule that says moderator discretion applies. Also, when a post gets reported for trolling, it’s also discussed by at least a couple moderators before action is taken, so it’s not just one of us making the decision.