Well.. honestly, in haste, i misspelled "level", referring to measurement. I studied in other languages than english and have words filed in an uncommon manner (too much information lol!)
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What is your guilt leval for owning a clone?
- Thread starter Dash Lashes
- Start date
With basses and amps, I'm set on specific brands and models. With effects pedals, just give me the cheapest option possible that's not in a plastic housing because I just don't care. Put a blindfold on me and I don't think I could tell the difference between say, a Fulltone OCD and a Joyo Ultimate Drive. I've gotten to the point where I'm only using one pedal for one 15 second passage in one song in our 3+ hour set anyway. Lately, I'd rather just roll on more or less neck pickup to change my tone up.
There are valid points of view on both sides of the cloning debate. I think the original pedal cloning question is just too general for a poll. Maybe if you were to ask about specific aspects of cloning then the debate would be more reasonable.
Such as:
-What do you think about cloning vintage (no longer in production) pedals?
-What do you think about cloning a rack unit into a pedal format?
-What do you think about a small shop operation cloning from a large manufacturer?
-What do you think about a large manufacturer cloning from a small shop operation?
-What do you think about large manufacturers cloning from other large manufacturers?
-How many added features no longer make it a clone, but something new and different?
This is a grey area that cannot be generalized into one simple question.
-Frank
Such as:
-What do you think about cloning vintage (no longer in production) pedals?
-What do you think about cloning a rack unit into a pedal format?
-What do you think about a small shop operation cloning from a large manufacturer?
-What do you think about a large manufacturer cloning from a small shop operation?
-What do you think about large manufacturers cloning from other large manufacturers?
-How many added features no longer make it a clone, but something new and different?
This is a grey area that cannot be generalized into one simple question.
-Frank
What about all the Marshall & Fender amp kits out there.
I built a scratch build, off of the JCM800 1987 circuit.
Been wanting to build a 1986 bass version.
I guess I need to pay someone? :<)
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
T
I built a scratch build, off of the JCM800 1987 circuit.
Been wanting to build a 1986 bass version.
I guess I need to pay someone? :<)
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
T
Couldn't agree more. Similar questions could also apply to basses and amps too.
Apparently the added features must constitute 81% of the device before it gets no-longer clone status.
This number-percentage has been unanimously agreed upon universally by every manufacturer from all industries from every jurisdiction (note I did not say "country") around the globe.
You're a manufacturer, didn't you get the memo?
I think you missed the part about the fact that Gibson LOST in court, and the inference that a 20% ultimatum may be cause for some hypocrisy and painting oneself into a corner.
I think the courts are a little more learned than either of us on the legalities of cloning. (maybe not, I don't know what you do for a living). The circuits, as I understand it, are not eligible for copyright whereas their expression is. A circuit is an abstract idea, which can't be legally protected (I didn't evolve the laws, that's just the way it is, or the way I've been told it is). However, take that idea, wrap it up in a pretty box and give that pretty box a pretty name and it is pretty well protected — the box graphics and name.
Hum a melody, one that you thought up, in public (or don't) and if that same melody appears on the top 40 by an artist other than yourself, can you sue them for theft of IP? No, but had you wrote the tune down, had it published on paper or recorded it and registered it... So the idea cannot be copyrighted, but its execution can.
This is how it works, to the best of my knowledge. I'll have to look into this more.
I'll get my wife to explain it to me, she's an IP lawyer.
I once owned a Bugera BVV3000 which was basically a clone of an Ampeg SVT. It was a mighty amp and only cost €450. Nothing wrong with that. I sold it due to its unweildy weight and size. Rockin amp.
Apparently the added features must constitute 81% of the device before it gets no-longer clone status.
This number-percentage has been unanimously agreed upon universally by every manufacturer from all industries from every jurisdiction (note I did not say "country") around the globe.
You're a manufacturer, didn't you get the memo?
Nope, I’m not in the cloner’s camp, so I must not be on the distribution list.
But seriously, 81%? I have been working in the electronics industry for 30+ years and this is the first I’ve heard of that. I really need to see the standards that qualify that percentage.
There are many aspects to a product:
-Function
-Features
-Appearance and style
-Usage
-And others
81% would mean that just about everything produced is a clone in one way or another… Smart phones, TV’s, computers, watches, cars/trucks/trains/planes, toasters, refrigerators…..
How would one measure the percentage of changing a pedal design from buffered bypass to true-bypass? Would that be a 10% or 20% difference? If someone changes the power requirements for a pedal from 18V to 9V, what would that amount to in percentage, and how is it measured?
Where are the accepted standards spelled out?
-Frank
The only thing where i draw the line is an exact copy built cheaply with the intention to offer it at a lower price than the product that is cloned, which is still available.
That's hard to do with a bass, amp or cab.
That's hard to do with a bass, amp or cab.
Let's say you want a Centaur. You spend $2000 for one on ebay. What percentage of that goes back to the designer? If the answer is zero, then you're not really taking bread out of anyone's mouth by picking up an EHX Soul Food instead.
For me, it's simple. If something is available, I'll buy the original. For me to buy a clone, it's got to do something different: smaller, quieter, etc.
"Cheaply" could mean a lot of things though. Simply changing the country or region of origin can affect the price immensely. I don't necessarily mean China. A pedal builder in Scandinavia or New York City is most likely going to charge much more than a pedal builder in Montana.
Voted 0. It's just electronics with, in case of digital effects, a software program. Everyone with knowledge of electronics and the right software can design effect pedals. Quality and reliability are a matter of component choice and price. Compare this with cars, televisions, cell phones... Are these all clones or just a different make? If there were no competition, our pedals would be way overpriced.
All spelled out in post #55:"... if a design is within 20% of the original (in any aspect), it's 100% trash."
Correct.
Crikey! Cataclysmic Chronic Cloning!
So the OP's 20% diktat is a vote for monopolies, market stagnation and lack of innovation even though it's proven nobody took money out of Gibson's pockets and caused Gibson Shareholders' kids to starve. The courts ruled that Gibson didn't have a monopoly on single-cut mahogany-maple-capped guitars, wasn't the first and won't be the last, and that customers could and would differentiate between a Gibson and a Paul Reed Smith and were free to do so.
I don't know. People should strive to purchase ethically. I can sleep at night with pretty much all my pedal purchases.
I know some people who are completely anti clone but play through a Valve Train amp. People have very flexible morals/ethics. I produce Intellectual Property for a living, I try to treat people the way I would want to be treated.
I know some people who are completely anti clone but play through a Valve Train amp. People have very flexible morals/ethics. I produce Intellectual Property for a living, I try to treat people the way I would want to be treated.
stuff like fender jazz and p basses haven't really changed much in soooo long that i don't feel any guilt because I feel like me not buying from them isn't going to change the fact that next year they'll just release the same bass in a different color or with a pickup or bridge that could be bought aftermarket right now. I've owned a real fender p bass and an old peavey p bass clone and prefered the clone.
On the other hand I wouldn't buy for example a ritter or fodera clone.
I kind of look at it like a Patent that eventually expires because in my line of work they actually do expire. At first people should respect the r&d and money put into a design. But after a decade or so that design is free game. If the original designer doesn't like it maybe they should try improving a design instead of trying to sell us the same old gear at higher prices year after year.
On the other hand I wouldn't buy for example a ritter or fodera clone.
I kind of look at it like a Patent that eventually expires because in my line of work they actually do expire. At first people should respect the r&d and money put into a design. But after a decade or so that design is free game. If the original designer doesn't like it maybe they should try improving a design instead of trying to sell us the same old gear at higher prices year after year.
Purchase ethnically NSHu? So you're saying we should all purchase Centaurs even though a Minotaur might fit our needs better? What if I'm in the market for a Medusa or plan to purchase a Pan? What if I want a serving of Cerberus? Is it significantly short-sighted to shop for a cyclops?
The anti-clone cometh...
Buy [sic] the OP's logic: if you don't buy the used (assuming you meant second-hand sale by your ebay ref), you should buy an original Klon, not the EHX clone.
By buying the Soul Food with your hard-earned bread, you aren't spreading it to Mr Klon Incorporated, but beyond the Centaur of the universe and thus are indeed taking the bread out of the mouths of Klon's starving babes.
So by and by you must decide who must starve:
Klon's kids whilst you feed your own from the money you saved by feeding EHX's children
OR
Starve your own offspring as well as EHX's brood because you chose to buy a potentially probably overpriced overdrive pedal.
****
I've sadly said enough, too much, and must now say enough is enough.
Bye-Bye until we clone meet again.
I won't clone around here no more
Don't clone around here no more
Whatever effect you're looking for
Hey! don't clone around here no more
The anti-clone cometh...
Buy [sic] the OP's logic: if you don't buy the used (assuming you meant second-hand sale by your ebay ref), you should buy an original Klon, not the EHX clone.
By buying the Soul Food with your hard-earned bread, you aren't spreading it to Mr Klon Incorporated, but beyond the Centaur of the universe and thus are indeed taking the bread out of the mouths of Klon's starving babes.
So by and by you must decide who must starve:
Klon's kids whilst you feed your own from the money you saved by feeding EHX's children
OR
Starve your own offspring as well as EHX's brood because you chose to buy a potentially probably overpriced overdrive pedal.
****
I've sadly said enough, too much, and must now say enough is enough.
Bye-Bye until we clone meet again.
I won't clone around here no more
Don't clone around here no more
Whatever effect you're looking for
Hey! don't clone around here no more
Guilt? Zorro zap filtch nadir nine! 
I have stuff I never knew was a clone, Daddy O. And all the wood is wicked. Where would that fit? What do I do, turf it? If it were made illegal, that would be a different kettle of fish. Retrospectively enforce such a law, should one be made, and, sure as eggs, I'd mutiny. I expect, I wouldn't be alone.
Morality aside, it might be best to be practical here. But, by all means, support the originator, if it's within your power to do so.
I have stuff I never knew was a clone, Daddy O. And all the wood is wicked. Where would that fit? What do I do, turf it? If it were made illegal, that would be a different kettle of fish. Retrospectively enforce such a law, should one be made, and, sure as eggs, I'd mutiny. I expect, I wouldn't be alone.
Morality aside, it might be best to be practical here. But, by all means, support the originator, if it's within your power to do so.
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