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What NOT To Do On Walking Bass

#41
Quinn Roberts said:
This is exactly what I would expect a person to say about the fourth... Not that I didn't want to hear it, but I often find myself going from the fourth to the root and it sounding a bit tense maybe, but still "okay" to my ear. I'm thinking I might just be colouring the chords into an eleventh when I do this which is why my untrained ear is willing to go with it. I've done my best to stop myself from doing this, but still find myself being drawn there every now and again when I'm not paying too much attention. I feel like this may be from me playing to many Sus and 11 chords on guitar and listening to a bit too much Santana. It's bleeding into my lines almost, which could work on lead guitar I guess, but probably not so much for harmony on a bass.
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I had the same problem and had to really train myself not to do it. It helped me to practice without passing tones and just stick to arps/chord tones until they were pretty much filled j, then start experimenting with unscented paying tones or leading tones into the chord notes or roots that I wanted to really hit. The cool thing about walking is that you don't really need to embellish much, if you have good pocket and the soloists can hear the changes through what you (and any other accompaniment) are doing, you're in good shape.
 
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#43
InhumanResource said:
Why would you play the minor third on a dominant 7 chord anyway? Unless you WANT to clash with the chord tone?
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I called it a 'don't', so clearly I don't want to play that.
Speculating, I would guess that some players think that if
D-E-F-F# works well on a Dm chord, then G-A-Bb-B is ok too for G.
Both have a minor and a major third. The difference is of course that on Dm the 'wrong' third is on the 4th beat and on the G chord the 'wrong' third is on the (heavy) 3rd beat.
 
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#44
HandsFree said:
I know of one big 'don't' that I hear often.
In a ii-V-I situation say dm-G-C this is the 'don't':
D-E-F-F#|G-A-Bb-B|C
That Bb on the 3rd beat clashes with the major 3rd of G. The pro's never play it like that.
Always:
D-E-F-F#|G-G#-A-B|C

Note that the F# and G# also don't belong to the chords, but they are on 2nd and 4th beats, that makes all the difference.
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Obviously have never transcribed Sam Jones or Ron Carter
 
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#45
Quinn Roberts said:
That's the truest thing I've read! Same goes for any instrument, it's all in the the driver, not the car!
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To true and well done. I got rid of my "name" basses and bought a cheap Squier and now spend hours and hours studying.....best thing I ever did. To many peeps get obsessed with this bit of gear and that bit of gear etc..
Ain't no substitute for hard work.
 
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#46
Quinn Roberts said:
I often find this to be a problem with jazz and music based off such, at least for myself whom I'd consider a total novice, you can keep looking so deep into a subject, like a b3 on a dominant 7, that you end up with five reasons for and five reasons against. It leaves me in a mental stalemate where I'm not sure what to do really. Something sounds good to me, but Jim Bob says it's wrong and can't/won't be.
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"Rules" in jazz are very malleable. Try stuff, record stuff. If you like it do it. When you listen and find you're not liking it or maybe you do something too much then adjust. In many situations, walking lines are a form of improv and the rules apply even less to this. As long as you are supporting the lead instruments, pretty much anything goes. This part of the puzzle of which you referred earlier - except that unlike a jigsaw which has only one correct solution, the music puzzle can be assembled in many different ways.
 
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#47
mrcbass said:
in a blues jazz setting this needs to be very sparing, but you can get away with it much more in most jazz situations. Just like everything else, there is no single golden rule to cover all situations - you kind of have to feel when it is appropriate to apply certain ideas.
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Correct!!!

A perfect example: take note of the creative approach that "Clam" on bass employs here in "Desolate Shore" to blend perfectly with the other musicians:

 
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#49
I've never played jazz, but I did do time in western swing and old school country. The only walking bass "don't" I can think of in that genre is "don't do anything fancy"! In that music the bass should simply propel the song and lead the listener to the next chord in a very accessible way - you're telegraphing what comes next - without really calling attention to itself. I found it super fun and hugely educational to learn..
 
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#51
InhumanResource said:
I had the same problem and had to really train myself not to do it. It helped me to practice without passing tones and just stick to arps/chord tones until they were pretty much filled j, then start experimenting with unscented paying tones or leading tones into the chord notes or roots that I wanted to really hit. The cool thing about walking is that you don't really need to embellish much, if you have good pocket and the soloists can hear the changes through what you (and any other accompaniment) are doing, you're in good shape.
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That's about how I am going about getting the fourth out of my arsenal as well. Mixing in arpeggios with some very basic scale runs. Just recently started playing around with more chromatic approaches which helped bring this topic to mind actually!

mrcbass said:
"Rules" in jazz are very malleable. Try stuff, record stuff. If you like it do it. When you listen and find you're not liking it or maybe you do something too much then adjust. In many situations, walking lines are a form of improv and the rules apply even less to this. As long as you are supporting the lead instruments, pretty much anything goes. This part of the puzzle of which you referred earlier - except that unlike a jigsaw which has only one correct solution, the music puzzle can be assembled in many different ways.
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I have an AudioBox and I record myself far less than I should. I've often heard it can be a real aide. The few times I've attempted to record myself it was really nice to be able to make judgement on how something sounded after the fact. Some things I didn't agree with at the time I played them actually sounded alright, and some things I liked certainly came off... well not the way I originally heard them while playing, lol.

There's really a ton of great information that's been shared in this thread so far. I've definitely got quite a number of things I wanna work with now! And a good idea with a few things I could try as well! ;)
 
#52
Quinn Roberts said:
I've been trying to study walking bass the past few weeks and have been having some pretty decent luck with it so far, it's also great being able to play the same song five times in a row differently each time!
But, to the point, while researching methods for making walking lines I've come across a nearly infinite number of possibilities, which comes off as rather daunting. There's almost so many "Do's" for walking bass that it seems nobody really speaks about the "Don'ts" when it comes to creating walking lines.
I almost feel that thinking in this way could make it easier on the mind when trying to create new lines and improvise, due to there being less potentials one needs to fathom.
So what does everyone think? What are the "Don'ts" to making a walking bass line?

Also, sorry if this is the wrong section, I see a lot of walking bass and jazz talk in the DB section, but at the moment I only play electric.
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It depends on the song, most of the time basslines are simple but they can be fancy to. If the song your improvising over has a simple bass line, you improvise a simple bassline. If the song has a lot of bass fills you can improvise fills.
 
#53
esoxhntr said:
A rhythmic/feel tip... don't over emphasize beat one. Beat two and beat four should get a little (and I mean only a little) extra weight to keep things rolling along. Also, keep your quarter notes nice and long. There are times where feel is more important than the exact notes that you are playing.
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redstrand said:
This.
Adding a rest here and there can let a song breathe, couple of slides and hammer ons and the gallops quite nicely
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I've been very afraid of the tritone.. It's another one that seems like a big jump, these I guess can be pretty good with taste though I'm beginning to realize more and more.
After I got a bit more comfortable with just arpeggios and some simpler stuff I have recently been looking for ways to add some more rhythmic interest into lines too. Is this be a way for one to extend notes that larger intervals apart? Say I play a rhythm going from Dm7 to G7; beat one A, beat two F, beat three D. Could I use a triplet to bring my D note closer to G? (A-F-D-E F F#) I haven't really tried putting triplets into my lines yet, but I'd assume they're mostly used to play on neighbor tones and such.
 
#57
Whousedtoplay said:
I remember when a few months (or maybe years?), we had a very similar "sizzling" discussion about Open E - Major 3rd with C minor chord on Beat 3. Even some heavy-weight jazz musicians got involved and what...
Nothing has changed.
All parties have left the discussion with "I like it", or "I don't like it/I don't except it".
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This is not a heavy waited discussion on flat and major thirds though, lol. It may have become such though, maybe I should add a poll? :rolleyes:
 
#58
Quinn Roberts said:
I haven't really tried putting triplets into my lines yet, but I'd assume they're mostly used to play on neighbor tones and such.
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With the exception of the downward, cascading, arpeggio plinks (Octave I, V iii I not really sure what they are called), triplets are not part of a walk. A "walk" is normally a very rhythmic (1/4 notes, sometimes 1/8 notes). You'll hear an occasional ghost "skip" here and there, but walks by definition are a steady droning beat.

Listen to the bass after it gets out of the head in this tune (Sugar). The bass player employs both ghost skips and cascading "plinks" as an example of what I'm talking about.



I just picked this song because I knew it had the "plinks" in it. Oddly this example has a lot of lessons in it. I'd never heard this version before but here's what I'm hearing:

IMO, he overuses all the tricks. The ghost skips, the plinks and a lot of triplets. Everything I've heard or read says to minimize anything that varies from the steady. Cascades and skips can be distracting to the listener - while good walks are cool to listen to, you want to avoid doing anything that takes attention away from the lead artists. This example may have delivered a biased lesson because I wanted to listen to the bass, but I found myself not even hearing the solo artist at all - the bass line grabbed the attention because it was "too cool". So as a lesson in bad: avoid overusing this stuff - grab the listener for a beat and then let them get back to the soloist.

But there is a really good example of how to properly vary rhythm by using half and whole notes in conjunction with the steady walk and it even demonstrates some really good use of chromatic passing tones.
 
#59
Whousedtoplay said:
I have not reached that state of "knowledge" where my ears would be able to separate #9 from b3rd.

I envy you who can easily discern between D# and Eb in C7.
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Maybe not by ear, but presuming the key is F it is reasonable to notate as Eb. Little easier to read flat accidentals in a flat key.

Edit:. The more I think about this the more I realize it has to be Eb. F already has a D (natural) as the sixth scale degree, you wouldn't use D again for the seventh degree. It would have to be some type of E.

I could see analyzing a particular chord in this key containing a D# however that would be related to the particular chord in question and it's harmonic function against the rest of the piece.
 
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#60
Whousedtoplay said:
Here is my question for jazz-loving musicians.
Let's take the most trivial progression - Dmin7 - G7 and C maj7.
Can I play the chord note! - B - from the C maj7 chord on Beat 1?

Here is some more of chromatic notes in walking bass lines from the Internet.

From here:

Link Removed

Please, check the notes of each Beat for D7 and G major.


View attachment 2828152
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Sure, why not? Chances are it is a melody note too. Unless it sounds ugly against whatever else is playing, there's no reason you can't do it.
 

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