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What NOT To Do On Walking Bass
- Thread starter Quinn Roberts
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- walking walking bass
When playing a implied two by playing four notes per beat. Repeat the the first and second beat as a pair or the 3rd and forth. As such I think it sounds bad and have hardly ever heard any one repeat the 2nd and third beat. Which gets away from that classic sound of playing in 2.
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I definitely disagree. If you have an upward or downward half step resolution at every chord change, your ear gets extremely tired of it.
BTW... I'd play that chromatic II/V line above. Why? Because it has such a strong movement/momentum that it just sounds good! (IMHO)
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"There's no such thing as a wrong note, only what you play next."
-Miles Davis
I'm paraphrasing, but for all the time I may get myself hung up on the topic and theory and technique, I always come back to that. I love this thread, but I think what you're doing by playing lots is the real solution to learning what not to do when walking.
The only "don't" that has ever stuck is "don't play fourths over major scale I chords" - the old "avoid note" concept. Even as passing notes I find them awkward, but maybe that's just me....
I guess our ears will get tired of anything if it's all we ever play. On the other hand, resolving by whole step might sound square the very first time you do it.
- Jun 9, 2013
- 173
- 97
- Disclosures
- Bacchus / STR Endorsing Artist and direct Dealer of new and used MIJ Brands.
THe use of Cb would be if the line was descending , not ascending.Yes, I know it and wholeheartedly disagree with Stinnett. And maintain that that is not how walking is played by the big names (I believe wutp posted the same in a similar thread along with something by Gary Willis that was much better).
I don't know the Wheeler tune but don't tend to take such examples at face value.
Do we know that is really what Holland played? The transcription already looks suspicious with the B natural on the Bb chord (you'd expect Cb) while two bars later the chord is written as Cb.
But more reason for doubt is that Bb7 alt chord. Alt is not a chord quality and is often used in transcriptions when b9 (or #9) and b13 or are audible but the 3rd is unclear.
It could well just have been a Bbm7. Or if it really was Bb7 alt, Holland may have optioned to play #9 there, but I would still find that a bad choice on beat 3.
And of course Holland, like all of us, could have made a mistake.
Also playing a sharp 9 on a Dominant chord is nothing unusual, same as playing the major third on a minor 7 chord.
This is all diminished and altered theory and is something that pianists seem to know much more about than bassists!
On a 2-5-1, Chromatic ascension of root, 9, sharp 9, major 3rd, root, 9, sharp 9, major 3rd, to root is standard fare.
I've heard it a million times from all the greats, so I don't know where you are getting this thinking from.
It works because it stems from altered theory.
Some prefer to use less tension in their walking lines, like Ron Carter for example, who plays pretty harmonically simple lines (although he also uses the chromatic ascension too, but more conservatively) or Ray Brown.
Any way in Jazz altered theory and harmony is vital. Once you learn that possibilities are endless!
Depends on how you do it. A circle of fourths progression with a descending bass line lends itself more to diatonic (usually whole step) resolution, whereas an ascending bass line usually has to make use of chromaticism. Mixing and matching is definitely the way to go.
This!!!
Also, DO NOT do this at home in your basement/practice room/man cave. You need to get out and play with others. Endlessly. Jazz is a music conceptualized in experimentation. You have to play and play and play and listen and listen and play some more until you find YOUR voice. Then you'll constantly change your mind about what your voice is. It's a journey - a very long, very rewarding one if you keep at it for long enough.
I would concentrate less on what exact notes you're going to play and work really hard on trying to find people to play some notes with. The correct ones will reveal themselves to you over time.
Just got done with my weekly bass/theory lesson and Lord would he have stopped this whole b3rd/#9 debacle if he came yesterday, lol! We actually went over the use of Altered scales played over tritone substitutions and using the altered scale to solo with such. We didn't dive fully into making bass lines with the scale, but I figure it's self explanatory if you know what your progression is. I've never experienced such a co-winky-dink in my whole damn life! We also went over the numerous bebop scales, boy do I have some chromatic ideas to play with now on some of my lines!
My take?
Don’t over complicate things
Don’t forget to let everyone know what the next chord is going to be.
Don’t be afraid to play the same note twice
Don’t walk like you’re late for work, you don’t always have to keep moving
Don’t forget to bounce when you walk
Don’t forget to switch up your stride
Don’t walk all over the other musicians
Don’t hesitate to practice walking bass lines while actually walking, without your bass.
As far as the specific discussions of chromatics and passing tones, I have felt that over use of chromatics can tend to loose the focus of the progressions and make for wishy-washy.
Don’t make the mistake of thinking that avoiding the root in favor of more “complicated” lines makes you somehow more proficient.
But as others have said, practice leading off the phrases on something other than root, But know when to land it.
Don’t over complicate things
Don’t forget to let everyone know what the next chord is going to be.
Don’t be afraid to play the same note twice
Don’t walk like you’re late for work, you don’t always have to keep moving
Don’t forget to bounce when you walk
Don’t forget to switch up your stride
Don’t walk all over the other musicians
Don’t hesitate to practice walking bass lines while actually walking, without your bass.
As far as the specific discussions of chromatics and passing tones, I have felt that over use of chromatics can tend to loose the focus of the progressions and make for wishy-washy.
Don’t make the mistake of thinking that avoiding the root in favor of more “complicated” lines makes you somehow more proficient.
But as others have said, practice leading off the phrases on something other than root, But know when to land it.
Cb has nothing to do with ascending or descending. If you walk up half a tone from Bb then that's a Cb, especially so if the next note is notated as Db. Walking from B natural to Db doesn't make sense at all.
Both #9 on major chord and major 3 on a minor chord can obviously be used by pianists and other high register players.
Bass has a special function in that regard. We can play these notes on light beats (2 and 4 usually), but if played on a heavy beat in a register where it is the lowest sounding tone, then we have changed the chord.
When playing walking bass we have to provide the harmony over which the other players can play.
Like I said elsewhere, if we, unlike pianists, play a D# on a c major chord then it has turned into a minor chord.
A soloist will expect a c major and may decide to play #9, the altered harmony you mention. I'd have ruined that moment for the solist if I had played a D# in the bass.
We can not just copy harmonic principles that are valid in a higher register to the bassline.
In fact the theory of altered harmony is valid because the basic chord tones are expected to sound below the altered notes.
- Jun 9, 2013
- 173
- 97
- Disclosures
- Bacchus / STR Endorsing Artist and direct Dealer of new and used MIJ Brands.
Of course, but we are not talking about the Major chord here we are talking about the dominant and minor chords.
Look at the transcripts again. the sharp 9 is used on the 2 (minor) and 5 (dominant) not the 1.
You should never play the minor third on a Major 7 of course, but you can on a dominant chord, because of altered harmony and tritone / altered theory.
Music is creativity and expression, tension and release, no need to get too muddled up in the do's and don'ts.... if it sounds good, do it! But of course you should know what you are doing and why it works! LOL
In classical music Cb is in descent, and B natural in ascent, granted that may not be the case in Jazz, and it depends on the key signature; Personally I don't really care either way how it gets notated, it means the same thing. Of course if you are in Gb your key signature should have a Cb in it for example, but if you are in C major then it is B (natural) not C flat, which ever way you look at it. So in C major ascent from the dominant to tonic could be G A Bb or A sharp, B natural or just B, leading to C for a standard walking pattern. Either way is correct in context of the Key center.
Theory is way cool.
- Jun 9, 2013
- 173
- 97
- Disclosures
- Bacchus / STR Endorsing Artist and direct Dealer of new and used MIJ Brands.
Of course, but we are not talking about the Major chord here we are talking about the dominant and minor chords.
Look at the transcripts again. the sharp 9 is used on the 2 (minor) and 5 (dominant) not the 1.
You should never play the minor third on a Major 7 of course, but you can on a dominant chord, because of altered harmony and tritone / altered theory.
Music is creativity and expression, tension and release, no need to get too muddled up in the do's and don'ts.... if it sounds good, do it! But of course you should know what you are doing and why it works! LOL
In classical music Cb is in descent, and B natural in ascent, granted that may not be the case in Jazz, and it depends on the key signature; Personally I don't really care either way how it gets notated, it means the same thing. Of course if you are in Gb your key signature should have a Cb in it for example, but if you are in C major then it is B (natural) not C flat, which ever way you look at it. So in C major ascent from the dominant to tonic could be G A Bb or A sharp, B natural or just B, leading to C for a standard walking pattern. Either way is correct in context of the Key center.
Theory is way cool.
Let's not forget the good ol' blues scale folks!Of course, but we are not talking about the Major chord here we are talking about the dominant and minor chords.
Look at the transcripts again. the sharp 9 is used on the 2 (minor) and 5 (dominant) not the 1.
You should never play the minor third on a Major 7 of course, but you can on a dominant chord, because of altered harmony and tritone / altered theory.
Music is creativity and expression, tension and release, no need to get too muddled up in the do's and don'ts.... if it sounds good, do it! But of course you should know what you are doing and why it works! LOL
In classical music Cb is in descent, and B natural in ascent, granted that may not be the case in Jazz, and it depends on the key signature; Personally I don't really care either way how it gets notated, it means the same thing. Of course if you are in Gb your key signature should have a Cb in it for example, but if you are in C major then it is B (natural) not C flat, which ever way you look at it. So in C major ascent from the dominant to tonic could be G A Bb or A sharp, B natural or just B, leading to C for a standard walking pattern. Either way is correct in context of the Key center.
Theory is way cool.
Lol, you guys sure this ain't a debacle? We've spent 24 hours now arg... discussing an off-topic subject!
Must say it's been rather entertaining though! 
Don’t slap. Seriously, a walking bass line is nothing more than an arpeggio, it’s not a scale per se’. You can use a scale or scales for the formation, but the really good ones make it seemless. I’m not great at it, but I can get the job done in a workman like fashion.
Reading this thread makes me think I really need to study more theory, so I know what rules I'm routinely breaking.
If I didn't have so many gigs to prepare for, I'd certainly do just that.
If I didn't have so many gigs to prepare for, I'd certainly do just that.
That's about my moto, as long as I can explain myself to some degree I'm happy. If I know what I'm doing wrong then it's just abstract free jazz! Now if I don't know what's wrong, well that's not always fun, lol.
Regardless of what notes you play in the progression, there should be some sort of melodic end-goal within the harmony, rather than a bunch of arpeggios and chromatic runs that meander all over the fret/finger board with no rhyme or reason within the broader context of the bass line. You don't want to be cooking high up on the board during the verse only find out there's no sensible way to outline the turn around at the end. My philosophy is that walking, particularly jazz walking, is the bass-equivalent of voice leading, which is one of the biggest cognitive shifts from playing walking lines in pop music versus walking in jazz and related styles. With the former, walks often hit the root on one and when there are passing tones and connecting runs, their end goal is to land on the root of one for the next chord change. In jazz, that's usually not the case - at least when players start gaining much more command of the style and the fretboard. It's like a pianist comping under a vocalist or soloist. That pianist is going to be playing a lot of inversions in the accompaniment, which gives the harmonic line a sense of connection. Interesting and effective walking works on the same principle, IMHO.
