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What to Do With Creased Acme Drivers?

Which is precisely why I moved away from these cabinets. Too much fear of being able to damage them just from ordinary everyday gigging. It really became no fun having to set up my cabinets in the living room every night after a job and run test signals through them to search for damaged cones and crossover bulbs. Yes, these are great for certain applications, but easy to tax them to the limits.

I am AMAZED that you stuck with them for so long. It would be interesting to know the precise gear you used with them, how loud your band was and other details like EQ and PA support, just so people can avoid these problems in the future.

I used to have problems blowing the bulbs but that was totally cured by switching from a Mackie M1400 to a PLX 3002 and going from 425W/B2 to 900W/B2.

Alex
 
If you use a filter on the Acmes make sure it's set at ~30Hz. If the filter is set much higher than that, like at ~50Hz, you could actually increase the risk of over-excursion and cone creasing by increasing the power demands an octave above the tuning frequency where the excursion is greatest.

Alex

I don't doubt the integrity of this information but would you please explain why this happens?

Please type slowly and use short words. You don't know who you're dealing with!

Riis
 
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I am AMAZED that you stuck with them for so long. It would be interesting to know the precise gear you used with them, how loud your band was and other details like EQ and PA support, just so people can avoid these problems in the future.

I used to have problems blowing the bulbs but that was totally cured by switching from a Mackie M1400 to a PLX 3002 and going from 425W/B2 to 900W/B2.

Alex

I was amazed I stuck it out for so long too. As great as they sounded, babying those cabinets just became a daily "maintenance" issue for me that I just couldn't handle!

Here's the rack I was using:

--Alembic F-1X tube preamp
--Behringer Multi-com (compressor)
--Aphex parametric EQ (5 band, used to put in mids and roll off lows)
--Stewart World 2.1 (in stereo)
--2 x B2s (4 ohms)

We always had PA support and the rig was purely for stage monitoring purposes. The band could be loud at times, but not deafening by any means. For EQ, I would generally dial in somewhere around 250 - 600 Hz for mid bump and roll off lows beginning around 40 Hz. And I would generally leave the crossovers up to get more midrange and top end bite. Bulbs blew fairly regularly and woofers were almost permanently creased.

Importantly I ALWAYS approached new drivers with care and made sure to give them a proper break-in before pushing them too hard.

I play primarily five string and did my fair share of percussive slaps and pops in this band, though nothing approaching the finger gymnastics of Victor Wooten or Marcus Miller. Eventually I came to the realization that I shouldn't let my note choices and dynamics be dictated on whether or not I thought my speakers could handle it...never a fun thing to run through your mind just as you are approaching the last notes of a song in front of a huge festival crowd.

I don't want to get down on Acme because I think they really can be a great product, but they really are extremely sensitive to the applications you choose to put them in.
If I was demo'ing fifteen kinds of basses made of different kinds of exotic woods, they'd be great for hearing all their nuances shine through. If I was in a situation where having a low volume studio monitor was what I needed, great. For a live dance band where reliable punch and clarity is needed, I might think twice this time around.


Lonnybass
 
I play primarily five string and did my fair share of percussive slaps and pops in this band, though nothing approaching the finger gymnastics of Victor Wooten or Marcus Miller. Eventually I came to the realization that I shouldn't let my note choices and dynamics be dictated on whether or not I thought my speakers could handle it...never a fun thing to run through your mind just as you are approaching the last notes of a song in front of a huge festival crowd.

Not to nitpick, but perhaps you should've been using two B4's for most of your gigs, especailly huge festival crowds, instead of the B2? I mean, what single 410 cabinet can handle a huge festival crowd? Two B2's is effectively the same as one 410 cab.
 
I was amazed I stuck it out for so long too. As great as they sounded, babying those cabinets just became a daily "maintenance" issue for me that I just couldn't handle!

Here's the rack I was using:

--Alembic F-1X tube preamp
--Behringer Multi-com (compressor)
--Aphex parametric EQ (5 band, used to put in mids and roll off lows)
--Stewart World 2.1 (in stereo)
--2 x B2s (4 ohms)

We always had PA support and the rig was purely for stage monitoring purposes. The band could be loud at times, but not deafening by any means. For EQ, I would generally dial in somewhere around 250 - 600 Hz for mid bump and roll off lows beginning around 40 Hz. And I would generally leave the crossovers up to get more midrange and top end bite. Bulbs blew fairly regularly and woofers were almost permanently creased.

Importantly I ALWAYS approached new drivers with care and made sure to give them a proper break-in before pushing them too hard.

I play primarily five string and did my fair share of percussive slaps and pops in this band, though nothing approaching the finger gymnastics of Victor Wooten or Marcus Miller. Eventually I came to the realization that I shouldn't let my note choices and dynamics be dictated on whether or not I thought my speakers could handle it...never a fun thing to run through your mind just as you are approaching the last notes of a song in front of a huge festival crowd.

I don't want to get down on Acme because I think they really can be a great product, but they really are extremely sensitive to the applications you choose to put them in.
If I was demo'ing fifteen kinds of basses made of different kinds of exotic woods, they'd be great for hearing all their nuances shine through. If I was in a situation where having a low volume studio monitor was what I needed, great. For a live dance band where reliable punch and clarity is needed, I might think twice this time around.


Lonnybass


While I never blew any of my Acme's up, my general experience and playing style are similar to yours. I always felt that I was on the verge of doing something that I would regret with those speakers. And, but the time I punched up the mids and rolled off the low end to get them articulate and punchy (at least for my definition of articulate and punchy:smug: ), I figured I might as well get a speaker cab voiced inherently that way in the first place so I could crank it and not worry. I've never looked back!

However, I'm with you also on praising the Acme's for certain applications. I found no speaker that sounds as good for EUB or a semi-hollow piezo loaded instrument like the Rob Allen... full, fat, organic, and very precise!
 
OK, here's my analysis of why there was a problem:

--Alembic F-1X tube preamp

Naturally big bottom - that should be ok but...

--Behringer Multi-com (compressor)

Increased sustain on high overtones increasing likelihood of blowing bulbs.

--Aphex parametric EQ (5 band, used to put in mids and roll off lows)

EQing in midrange does certainly increase the risk of clipping, especially as the midrange peak demand is higher during attack, especially when slapping.

EQing out lows at 40Hz and below means you're losing out on where the Acmes perform best. With a ported cab you get maximum LF power handling around the turning frequency - on the Acmes it's 30Hz, on most other cabs it's 40-55Hz. Because the port is taking over most of the output the cone excursion rapidly decreases. If there was no port cone excursion would quadruple every octave you descend. The port counteracts that and this means that at about an octave above the port tuning frequency excursion reaches a peak.

The bass content of any note is mostly from its first and second harmonic. If your cab cannot put out the first harmonic due to it having very little response there, the second harmonic has to be louder to sound as bassy. So if you remove the first harmonic with EQ then all the demand happens in the second harmonic. In the case of an Acme, EQ out the low B first harmonic (aka fundamental) which it is very good at reproducing and has huge power handling at, and all the power has to go into reproducing the second harmonic where the power handling is lowest. And bam, you run out of excursion.

--Stewart World 2.1 (in stereo)
--2 x B2s (4 ohms)

Good amp. Good match of power. Don't know how good the Stewart's limiters are - some limiters are much smoother than others and protect from extra HF energy blowing the bulbs.

No highpass filtering though, which is a shame. Then again you're already EQing out the lowest lows but as I said above that's what's causing your overexcursion problems.

We always had PA support and the rig was purely for stage monitoring purposes. The band could be loud at times, but not deafening by any means. For EQ, I would generally dial in somewhere around 250 - 600 Hz for mid bump and roll off lows beginning around 40 Hz. And I would generally leave the crossovers up to get more midrange and top end bite. Bulbs blew fairly regularly and woofers were almost permanently creased.

To put things in perspective, I played a gig on Saturday with the Acme rig (PLX 3002 and two Low-B2s) carrying the whole house sound, my drummer was unmiked but he has a Vistalite 'Bonham' kit with 26" kick which is insanely loud, and we're a kind of alternative rock band with a large dose of funk and ska. I was using no EQ or compression on bass or amp. I never ran out of headroom and the rig punched through the mix loud and clear.

I don't think the Acmes are as a good choice when you have a PA with subs because they put out more bottom than many subs and multiple LF sources tend to interact in unpredictable and often bad ways. However, I'd put money on you being able to hear yourself loud and clear if you used my bass and rig without changing any settings in your band - actually, I should say that is subject to having guitarists and keyboardists that understand the importance of keeping out of the sub 200Hz area - I forget what a pain that can be...

It's taken me years to get my head around why Acmes work great for some people and less well for others. The problem is that many of the intuitive things you did to help the situation - compression, mid boost, low cut - actually made things worse!

It's also a case of horses for courses - deep bottom and smooth mids are obviously not what you wanted as you're happy with your Schroeders which have very little sub 100Hz output and a big hump in the mids.

Alex
 
Not to nitpick, but perhaps you should've been using two B4's for most of your gigs, especailly huge festival crowds, instead of the B2? I mean, what single 410 cabinet can handle a huge festival crowd? Two B2's is effectively the same as one 410 cab.

Yes and no. I would always stack vertically, which is a far more ideal configuration for dispersion than a standard 4x10. And don't forget, this was in very controlled environments with full PA and monitor support, so the bass rig was not there to be pushed to the limits by any means. Last but not least, while festivals were PART of my gig work, they were by no means the only work I was doing. Bars and club dates, private parties and special events.

Lonnybass
 
Sounds like Andy is being sketchy. Almost paranoid which would be consistent with the experience I had with him. Its likely that your only option is to send the creased ones to him and pay for new.
 
I have two Acme 10" drivers that I replaced a while ago, but neglected to send them back to Andy. Now they sit in my garage taking up space.

Anyway, before I simply chuck them in the garbage, is there anything that CAN be done with these to give them new life?

Maybe. Forget about reconing to Acme specs, just hang standard Eminence parts on 'em and put 'em in a properly designed cab for the resulting driver spec? I can think of some cases where that wouldn't work out, but in many more cases it'd work fine.

I have an OEM spec Schro driver I'm about to do this with. I'll PM you with the results when I get it back from the shop.
 
Passinwind,

maybe i'm getting over my head, but could you clarify what that means? i'm just curious. does that pretty much mean putting the voicecoil into a generic frame and cone assembly?

Sorry, I could've been more clear. I meant putting a generic (or maybe just non-original) cone, spider, and voice coil into the existing frame. A good reconer should be able to figure out how feasible this is in this case.
 

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