Double Bass What to use with Pub 280

[Vunz]

The other thing to remember is that the Dyn-B does have its limits. The nature of the contact mic and the contact with the table does allow to work in a very different and arguably much more accurate manner than a typical bridge-mounted piezo, but you are still missing out on an important element of the sound that only a mic can get. I found especially for my own sound with gut strings that the Dyn-B didn't get everything I wanted although it was still by far better than any other pickup I've ever heard. The mic on the other hand has wonderful detail and character in the sound - really getting all the nuances of the pizz attack and the sizzle of the bow hair on the strings. However some people don't like those things - I do.

Although I do not use my Dyn-B together with a Pub, but with a Lab Gruppen power amp and one or two Glockenklang Acoustic Art cabs, and thus cannot compare my situation with Adrian's (let alone that we have totally different basses and I use steel strings), my experience - on my bass and with my rig, of course - is that, as soon as you have found the "sweet spot" on your bass, many, if not all, nuances of my playing can be heard, including string noise and bow hair "noise." It takes a bit of experimenting, but it is worth while. Moreover, feedback is not an issue. Last week, I played in a very noisy "circus tent," in which over 1,000 people were present, and I had no problems being heard at all.

But, then again, YMMV...

Vincent

 

[Adrian Cho]

One more question (for now) - for you and other Pubsters. When using for stage volume, do you usually mount it on the PA stand, and if so, how high? You wrote something about reaching down to make adjustments, so I took that to mean the Pub was on or close to the floor. Where and how far away do you position yourself in relation to the speaker?

Gracias, and whatnot.

Glad to help. It's just great that we have forums like this where we can meet other bassists and exchange information.

As for the position, yes mine is usually on the floor to my left and behind me (mostly slightly behind my left leg).

A few months ago I played on a small hollow stage and it was a bit boomy so the next day I got the small Schertler stand that allows you to tilt the speaker on its side - there's a photo of it in use in the Pub PDF on the Schertler.com site.

I've also tried mounting it on a normal pole stand but it wasn't any better for me however I have one just in case. I prefer it on the floor.

I'm glad you're happy with your Pub. It's certainly a marvel that's for sure and I love driving people crazy with mine by telling them that it has an 8" driver in it.

 

[Adrian Cho]

Chris and T-Bal mentioned the Full Circle. As an example that you don't always have to buy the most expensive solution:

I had a chance to briefly play a bass with a Full Circle through a GK MB115 combo. I tried the MB 115 cab once with the Clarus and my AMT and my bass (in my amp/speaker shootout) and I hated that cab.

Anyway, it was remarkably accurate. The bass had Obligatos. I'd be willing to bet that with gut strings I wouldn't be as impressed but in any case, when you compare the $$$, the FC was quite impressive. Certainly much better than a Realist or even a Stat-B.

 

[Tom Baldwin]

As for the position, yes mine is usually on the floor to my left and behind me (mostly slightly behind my left leg).

I'm going to pull a Bruce on you, by asking for your opinion and then questioning it. But how can you have the amp on your left when the bass is also on the left? It seems it would be harder to hear, being behind blocked by the bass, and all logic tells me not to point the speaker at the bass for feedback concerns. I always have mine on my right. The sound from the speaker is not directed towards the bass, and it kind of balances out by allowing the acoustic sound from the left to be augmented by the amplified sound on the right (sort of like stereo).

 

[Tom Baldwin]

as soon as you have found the "sweet spot" on your bass, many, if not all, nuances of my playing can be heard, including string noise and bow hair "noise." It takes a bit of experimenting, but it is worth while. Moreover, feedback is not an issue. Last week, I played in a very noisy "circus tent," in which over 1,000 people were present, and I had no problems being heard at all.

Great... just when it seemed like a no-brainer. Seriously, thanks for the input.

 

[AMJBASS]

When I had a Pub I used to put it on a stool directly behind me, and it sounded terrific. Goodness knows why I sold it! I am sure am kicking myself now.

The Dyn-B is incredibly sensitive. You would need to spend at least a good hour to pinpoint the exact spot on your instrument that sounds just right. Great pickup. I prefer the Mic sound personally, but the Dyn is the next best thing.

 

[Adrian Cho]

I'm going to pull a Bruce on you, by asking for your opinion and then questioning it. But how can you have the amp on your left when the bass is also on the left? It seems it would be harder to hear, being behind blocked by the bass, and all logic tells me not to point the speaker at the bass for feedback concerns. I always have mine on my right. The sound from the speaker is not directed towards the bass, and it kind of balances out by allowing the acoustic sound from the left to be augmented by the amplified sound on the right (sort of like stereo).

I could say that I play bass left-handed but I don't. Yes I do often have the speaker partially blocked by the bass but I don't find it a big deal. Sometimes I do have it further out left but I do always have it to my left, alongside or behind me and within reach because I usually put gear on top of it like the preamp(s). And sometimes when I have no music stand and I'm playing without music but then I have to cheat, I will have a copy of Pocket Changes on top of the speaker and read out it from the corner of my eye!

 

[poalf]

I keep my Pub on a stand... one of those heavy duty music stands you can get from Elderly or MusiciansFriend for about $40. Helps decouple the Pub from the floor. That socket in the bottom is too big (even for the regular speaker stands), so I made a 'bushing" out of wood to keep the Pub from flopping around.

I love my Dyn-B. PreIIA, Pub combination.

 

[Adrian Cho]

I keep my Pub on a stand... one of those heavy duty music stands you can get from Elderly or MusiciansFriend for about $40. Helps decouple the Pub from the floor. That socket in the bottom is too big (even for the regular speaker stands), so I made a 'bushing" out of wood to keep the Pub from flopping around.

I love my Dyn-B. PreIIA, Pub combination.

I'm not sure what you call "regular" but the Pub takes a "standard" 36 mm pole mount stand. I had no trouble finding one. My stand is all plastic but plenty strong enough and very stable.

 

[Adrian Cho]

as soon as you have found the "sweet spot" on your bass, many, if not all, nuances of my playing can be heard, including string noise and bow hair "noise."

Well perhaps but certainly it's not going to be the same as the mic. Those elements of the sound you are picking up are still effectively coming from the table I believe. IMO, the mic has a presence (what some might call an "airiness") that no pickup can possibly reproduce.

 

[Vunz]

Well perhaps but certainly it's not going to be the same as the mic. Those elements of the sound you are picking up are still effectively coming from the table I believe. IMO, the mic has a presence (what some might call an "airiness") that no pickup can possibly reproduce.

You're absolutely right. The Dyn-B is far more direct than a mic. But how much of this airiness is retained in an amplified setting?

Vincent

 

[AMJBASS]

That really does depend on the situation. Both Adrian Cho and I play in duos and you can really tell the difference. A mic just sounds so much more natural. They Dyn B is really close, but you can tell that it is missing that "open" sound on the top end. I like my Golden Bullet more than the Dyn B in duo and trio situations. However, if we are playing in a club, or it really gets loud in the room, you aren't going to hear the detail. In those situations I use my Realist. Keep in mind I play acoustic as much as possible, so the pickup is only used in situations where I can't hear myself at all.

 

[Vunz]

Well, I have to agree with Adrian and Adrian. The Dyn-B is more direct, and lacks the opennes of the top end (the Dyn-B sounds a bit compressed in the highs), but at the same time this quality makes that I can get a sound that cuts through, yet at the same time is very natural, in (moderately to heavily) amplified settings. My gigs mostly fall within this category, and I am very happy with my sound. But I do not exclude the possibility that I will buy a mic for those "less than loud" sessions...

Vincent

 

[Adrian Cho]

"Cutting through" especially with gut strings and the mic is a problem I have to deal with constantly. The guts have very little highs as it is and cranking the volume only makes it just generally more boomy, especially with most speakers. What's nice about the Pub is that it is about as clear as you can get so it helps rather than makes the situation worse. In the worst situations (e.g. playing outdoors and with instruments with similar timbres and ranges to the bass such as tenor sax or organ, etc.) when I struggle a little to be heard, I sometimes wish I was not playing on gut and/or using the Dyn-B. I've been playing the Velvet 180s on my other bass and they definitely cut through a lot more.

Having both the Dyn-B and the mic has other advantages. In some situations where you may want or can only use the Dyn-B on the stage, the mic can be sent to the house for recording and/or the PA.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Re: "Cutting Through":

In the past two nights I've played a couple of gigs, and they've been the kind of situations on which the Full Circle really showed its ass - namely, high volume. The FC doesn't seem to cut through loud textures well at all, as it retains an "open boominess" which I find quite annoying at higher volumes. Keep in mind, I'm playing a new bass with different strings (Obligatos), and a pickup with which I am unfamiliar. On my old bass with the thick top and a Double Bass Max, when I needed more volume, "solidity" of tone, and cutting ability, it was right there. The DBM at high volumes sounded like a giant flexed bicep, with no extra tubbiness or boominess...not exactly a terribly acoustic sound, but an extremely workable one as I feel that once you get to those volume levels, you don't sound acoustic anyway. I realize that I have a lot of experimenting left to do, but...

If we could rate the gear we're talking about in terms of "cutting through ability", I'd rate the gear I'm familiar with from top to bottom thusly:

Double Bass Max
Underwood
DBM with Trinity mic
Full Circle - Realist (tie, with the FC having better balance)
Trinity mic alone

I love a natural acoustic sound as much as the next guy, but if it never makes it past the edge of the stage, I have to wonder what good it is. I've noticed that with the exception of the DBM and Underwood, whose positions I would reverse, I could also read the list from bottom to top and rank the pickups in terms of "natural sound", like there's an inverse proportion between that and "cut through ability". Does anyone have thoughts on this observation (either agreeing or not), and where would the Dyn-B fit into this whole mess?

 

[Bob Branstetter]

Chris -

I was wondering how you had the FC adjusters mounted on your bridge. Threads Up or threads Down? I noticed on the Fishman website that under "Tips" they mentioned that their local luthier said that most players (there) prefered the sound with the the threads UP into the bridge rather than into the bridge feet.

I'm getting ready to install a FC in one of my basses (out of three) that does not sound absolutely great with the Realist pickup. I have no idea why this bass is different, but it is. It sounds and records great with a microphone, but the Realist is very "hollow sounding" on this bass. As we've said hundreds of times here on TB, Every bass is different and what works great on one bass may be awful on another. There is no such thing as a perfect pickup for every bass.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Chris -

I was wondering how you had the FC adjusters mounted on your bridge. Threads Up or threads Down? I noticed on the Fishman website that under "Tips" they mentioned that their local luthier said that most players (there) prefered the sound with the the threads UP into the bridge rather than into the bridge feet.

Mine is installed Threads Down. Which brings me to another question (sorry for the thread detour): How big of a deal is it to reverse the installation on one of these suckers? I don't know if the "blind" (smooth) end of the adjuster is the same, greater, or lesser diameter than the threaded side. Either way, how big of a deal is it to switch directions? I'm hoping to find out soon because I'm going to Cincy to see Nnick Lloyd about another matter on Thursday, but he's on a timetable, and if it would be too time-consuming it would have to wait for another time. If, on the other hand, it can be done relatively quickly...

 

[Adrian Cho]

I've noticed that with the exception of the DBM and Underwood, whose positions I would reverse, I could also read the list from bottom to top and rank the pickups in terms of "natural sound", like there's an inverse proportion between that and "cut through ability". Does anyone have thoughts on this observation (either agreeing or not), and where would the Dyn-B fit into this whole mess?

I think in general that "Fitzgerald Law" holds true. IMO, the acoustic sound of most basses does not cut through the mix very well. Yesterday I played in an outdoor location with tenor sax, guitar and voice. I struggled to be heard without cranking the volume and then there's the danger of it just being too loud. Normally it's not so bad but the sax player told me at the beginning that I was too loud so I turned down. I was digging in really hard all day and my fingers were quite sore at the end (four hours). I also ended up just cranking the volume a bit too.

Last night I played indoors with a trumpet and guitar in a real "echo chamber" location with glass and stone everywhere. With that instrumentation it's a lot easier to cut through the mix but with the sound bouncing around everywhere, I did have to invert the signal on my preamp at one point to get rid of some resonant feedback.

 

[Tom Baldwin]

I don't mind at all that the thread has widened in scope, it's all valuable info. Regarding the direction of threads on the FC, my understanding is that players wanting a darker sound will have the FC installed threads up, as this puts the disc and consequently the elements closer to the table. Conversely, threads down puts the disc closer to the strings and yields a brighter sound (in theory). Can anyone verify this?

On the notion of "cutting through", I have a hypothesis that it is partly about eq and inherent tonal characteristics, but more so about the degree to which attack and sustain play a role in your sound. This is one of the reasons I am considering switching to gut or similar. It seems to me that if you can achieve a stronger acoustic attack through technique and choice of strings, then get this accurately reproduced through the amp (if needed), we'd be getting somewhere. The kind of attack I'm talking about is not the same that EBers talk about, i.e. adding crispy high end into the eq. Rather, I liken it to "plosives" that you hear when speaking into a mic without a windscreen - p's and b's. As McBass pointed out, too much sustain is the enemy of a good bounce feel, because you want the note to decay enough to get out of the way of the next attack.

So I would imagine you're not going to get any better than gut strings and a mic. If you're looking at stoopid volumes, you're talking about a different style of music anyway. In that case, another approach is in order.

 

[AMJBASS]

I don't mind at all that the thread has widened in scope, it's all valuable info. Regarding the direction of threads on the FC, my understanding is that players wanting a darker sound will have the FC installed threads up, as this puts the disc and consequently the elements closer to the table. Conversely, threads down puts the disc closer to the strings and yields a brighter sound (in theory). Can anyone verify this?

On the notion of "cutting through", I have a hypothesis that it is partly about eq and inherent tonal characteristics, but more so about the degree to which attack and sustain play a role in your sound. This is one of the reasons I am considering switching to gut or similar. It seems to me that if you can achieve a stronger acoustic attack through technique and choice of strings, then get this accurately reproduced through the amp (if needed), we'd be getting somewhere. The kind of attack I'm talking about is not the same that EBers talk about, i.e. adding crispy high end into the eq. Rather, I liken it to "plosives" that you hear when speaking into a mic without a windscreen - p's and b's. As McBass pointed out, too much sustain is the enemy of a good bounce feel, because you want the note to decay enough to get out of the way of the next attack.

So I would imagine you're not going to get any better than gut strings and a mic. If you're looking at stoopid volumes, you're talking about a different style of music anyway. In that case, another approach is in order.

You are correct in all respects. If you sound great acoustic, you are going to have a MUCH better amplified sound. Especially if you use good equipment(which you have).