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Pipe organ latency, there's an interesting subject. Any organists on TB?
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What's the LARGEST possible speaker? I'm talking about what's possible.
- Thread starter T-boneParish
- Start date
Pipe organ latency, there's an interesting subject. Any organists on TB?
- Feb 12, 2006
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- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
I have worked on two pipe organ installations, players have to get used to both the acoustic latency and the electro-mechanical latency. It's the nature of the beast. I played a bit on one installation, it's not too bad at slow tempos, but as things speed up it's a whole lot tougher.
wmhill
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- Aug 20, 2012
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I rehearsed a few times with a guy that had a pair of them mounted in the cathedral ceiling of his house. They didn't sound very good, but they were a great conservation piece.
That Phil Jones video was interesting but I had to bail 10 or 15 minutes in because I couldn't stand him kicking the damn tripod every 3 seconds any more. Maybe if you know you're a chronic fidgeter, don't have the tripod within reach.
Anyway, on topic, I suppose given the engineering and materials budget, couldn't one design a really enormous speaker and use carbon fiber or titanium "spokes" to support a much larger diaphragm than normal? I don't mean for mass market purposes really (who needs a 4 foot woofer in their house/car?) but maybe just as a show piece or for fixed installations like music venues, etc... Maybe even have concentric rings of voice coils to have more even force.
Anyway, on topic, I suppose given the engineering and materials budget, couldn't one design a really enormous speaker and use carbon fiber or titanium "spokes" to support a much larger diaphragm than normal? I don't mean for mass market purposes really (who needs a 4 foot woofer in their house/car?) but maybe just as a show piece or for fixed installations like music venues, etc... Maybe even have concentric rings of voice coils to have more even force.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,067
- 5
- 221,115
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
Somehow you have to get enough flux through that ring of voice coils, not a trivial challenge.
JBL used a differential drive motor with a pair of axially mounted voice coils, also not a trivial approach, but it was known to be possible. Neo motors made it practical.
JBL used a differential drive motor with a pair of axially mounted voice coils, also not a trivial approach, but it was known to be possible. Neo motors made it practical.
That thumping sound wasn't Phil fidgiting, that was his camera refocusing. It was set to autofocus, and every time it changed focus, it made that annoying sound. Granted, the autofocus was triggered by Phil's gesturing, but he wasn't the one actually making the noise.
In the video, he mentioned that he lived in China for about 5 years, and that he has facilities there. I'm guessing some of those graphics were made with the help of his Chinese workers, because some of it looked very much like the work of non-native English speakers.
On topic...
Around 1980, I saw a Cerwin Vega speaker in a shop window that I guessed at the time was about 36". I was astounded, as I never had any inkling that anyone made speakers that big. I regret not going in at the time and at least learning more about it.
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Must have been a pretty crummy camera to do that. It (the AF) should be silent, especially if there happens to be a live microphone attached to it.
That was probably the Electrovoice 30W- EV sold them in their Patrician model of speakers. Never saw either, but mine were in cabinets that used the corner of a room to act as a horn and were originally used for a church organ's bass pedals.
I went outside while we were playing The Wall and during the part with a helicopter, I could feel the vibrations in my feet when I was standing near the side door of the house, which was close to where one of the speakers was positioned.
They weren't meant for high power- they were very efficient WRT moving air, not to be confused with 'sensitive'.
I contacted EV for the cabinet plans and they had two versions- one had frequency response down to about 21Hz (-3dB point) and the other went to 17Hz. The cabinet internal volume for each was 46 ft³ and 76 ft³- the larger was basically two 4' x 8' sheets of plywood attached to a rectangular frame that's 28-1/2" deep, plus any allowance for the 2x4 framing.
That EV may have been what I saw. In the 50s-60s the corner horn was the epitome of high-end, high fidelity “systems.” Just like today, no extreme was too extreme. I know there were audiophiles who built rooms in their houses around their stereos, especially because corner horns need SPACE to work well. There were architects who specialized in that work.
Oh, I completely agree. That sound was damned irritating, especially through headphones. At first I thought it might have been someone sitting opposite of Phil and making those sounds by thumping on a desk or something, but then I noticed that the sound coincided with the focusing. And the focus often didn't make any sense. There were a few moments when Phil and his hands were blurry while the doorknob behind him was crystal clear.
A phone would have done a better job.
I also found it informative, have some PJB gear that I use every day (Bass Buddy) and realized that it was the autofocus problem...and had to bail.
I will try to finish it later in smaller chunks.
And I know we are all wondering....why...starting with "disable auto focus"..
This was done in a couple of takes (note the change in background) so...whatup?
I learned a lot, included one of the sources of "magic smoke"...
So true... Jaco's Acoustic e.g.
My last year in college, I built a pair of these and filled them with Jensen components (15" woofers). The walls in our crappy apartment shook.
From '69 through '71 when I was in college, my summer job was as an assistant to a guy who was the go-to pipe organ restorer in upstate NY & PA. I personally helped take apart 70 year old organs three stories high with oak pipes up to 16ft (stopped) high. The dude was crazy, but so good at voicing the pipes etc. that he was booked like 5 years ahead. He was also part of that really high end audio crowd back then. You had to have McIntosh components and either Bozak or Klipsch speakers. Period. The organ tied in because the true test of your audio system was how it handled the recordings of E. Power Biggs and the bass notes down to 20hz. I worked on several high end audio constructions also... one job I remember consisted of infinitely baffled speakers (30" EV woofers) built flat into the wall at one end of a room, with connected wood channels built into, and under the floor. It was a pretty strange crowd... there were a few who even swore by mono systems, albeit, sometimes bi-amped, but these folks felt stereo was artificial BS.
With regard to the 30" EVs, often churches were too strapped to afford full restorations and opted for parts or all to be replaced with electronic stuff... this was especially true with the really big metal and wooden pipes. Yet they wanted that low, low end, hence the 30" EVs.
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Cool beans! I haven’t seen that drawing since the early 70s. I built a lot of cabs but never one of those.
My second college bunkie was a music major so I was always hearing new things. We once ran an E. Power Biggs LP first through a stereo and then through my bass amp and another guy’s guitar amp. What an impressive demo it was! Not hi-fi but BOOM!!! Enormous pipe organs are something special: the SVT of keyboards.
My second college bunkie was a music major so I was always hearing new things. We once ran an E. Power Biggs LP first through a stereo and then through my bass amp and another guy’s guitar amp. What an impressive demo it was! Not hi-fi but BOOM!!! Enormous pipe organs are something special: the SVT of keyboards.
It's better if you close your eyes and just listen.
Doesn't matter how many takes/sessions this was done in, he's not moving. Turn the AF off for (bad word)'s sake.
But, did they boogie?
That might explain what, to me, appears like the organist was "fighting" the organ. They were just playing ahead of the beat.
Easier said than done. Did you watch that video? The camera's autofocus was making a very distracting thumping sound throughout the video. It sounds crazy, I know, so you gotta watch a couple of minutes at least to see what we're talking about.
I had to replay a number of segments to catch what he was saying and digest it, because it was really that distracting.
Thanks - I'll try that - (and try not to hear that chunking) but he throws in a image from time to time with no cue... (not that I have a hope of understanding those graphs)
And it stands repeating - from someone who's prior knowledge of how speakers work is limited to getting the Gazindas and the Gazoutas to match... PJ covers a lot of ground and history...and I am going to power through this to the finish...
Yes, I did. After a while I just learned to ignore the noise and popping focus.
yeah, but it's not too hard to tell when the "white screen" shows up, just don't close your eyes too hard, or just look off at something else in the interim.
