What's the problem with jeff berlin?

[Thankful birds]

He subscribes to a theory that leaves many, including myself, very angry, and that is that the following things are USELESS:

Practice books
Form Books
Scale books
two hand tapping
(I think I remember slap as well, I may be wrong)
Instruction on fretless bass (that was a big one)
and last, as well as his largest arguement
Metronomes.

and there was a 10 or 15 part debate that he and Steve Bailey had at bass player live last year or the year before, it was interesting.

Don't forget electric tuners, which I will never understand. What does he do, use a pitch pipe? Or you do you have to have perfect pitch in order to play bass properly?

 

[fourstringdrums]

hes a great guy, and an AMAZING player. However, he was around and popular at the exact same time Jaco was, and he got overshadowed and didn't take well to it.

Since then he fell out of the lime light and has tried to get back in it, but his overly aggressive and opinionated nature have made him hard to access for some. He subscribes to a theory that leaves many, including myself, very angry, and that is that the following things are USELESS:

Practice books
Form Books
Scale books
two hand tapping
(I think I remember slap as well, I may be wrong)
Instruction on fretless bass (that was a big one)
and last, as well as his largest arguement
Metronomes.

and there was a 10 or 15 part debate that he and Steve Bailey had at bass player live last year or the year before, it was interesting.

Don't forget hand strengthening. He thought that the use of any exercises to strengthen your hands was useless which to me is bull. I have muscle atrophy in my left hand which makes fretting with my index finger difficult sometimes. So obviously is it something which would be solved by strength training.

 

[Mr_Dave]

Jeff's discussed his personality recently... and it turns out he thought people thought it was funny when he came off like a New Yawkeh Prick. Well, SURPRISE, Jeff! People just thought you were a prick. Which really isn't the case, and I know from firsthand experience. He's not the gentlest guy in the world when it comes to discussion on things he's passionate about and things you disagree with him on, but I suspect neither are a lot of TBers.

So Jeff, buddy? Please? Knock it off. Thanks, dude.

Jeff was another one of my instructors at MI; I'd hang out in his "Open Counseling" room whenever I had the chance (it was always packed). Once I asked him how to go about playing a bebop bass solo, and his response was "Well, do you know what a bebop bass solo sounds like?" I said sure, and he said, "Okay, so play one for me!" I felt like an idiot. When I said that I couldn't do it, he replied, "That's because you don't know what a bebop solo sounds like on bass." And that was the end of that discussion.

After being angry with the extremely rude way that he dealt with my question, it occurred to me that he was right - I DIDN'T know what one really sounded like, because I was too intimidated by the fact that they were going so fast for me to really pay close attention. So I went back to the apartment and got some of the records out, and slowed them down so I could hear what was going on better, and began to work on paying attention to the SOUND of a bebop bass solo (or any bebop solo, for that matter). Practice, practice...

A few months later I was back in his OC room, and out of the blue, he said to me, "Hey - did you ever figure out what a bebop solo sounds like?" I smiled, and said, "Yes, I did, Jeff - it sounds kinda like this:" And played a short solo over the first few bars of "Confirmation". Jeff smiled, and said, "YES! NOW you know what a bass solo sounds like!"

So, in his own I'm-better-than-you-punk fashion, he did manage to get me to learn something. I wasn't crazy about his methods, but I can't argue with the results. Is that fair?

Interesting story - and i'm glad it worked for you (sincerely!), but for everyone who is strong and responds to this kind of 'teaching' there must be someone who is broken, wants to give up, and becomes really disillusioned - it doesn't work for everyone... just like army boot camp...

Originally Posted by Grueber View Post
I don't know if this is old or not, but I happen to be checking out victor's website today when I noticed he posted something from Jeff on his main page.

http://victorwooten.com/

Here's an excerpt I found interesting:

Jeff Berlin, On Victor's site:
It is important to groove, but it is not worth the tuition that you spent to hear this. Telling a musician to groove is liking telling a swimmer not to drown. It is simply not worth dealing with except in a passing manner. I figure that teachers who teach their charges that grooving is important do this because they probably have little else to offer in regards to true musical information

That makes sense that he would have a view such as this, seeing as how I personally think his music has ZERO groove to it, and he generally IMO sounds like an annoying trombone that plays WAY too far on top of the beat.

Another good one:

The Germans, the French, the Venezuelans, the Chinese are killing us in regards to musical education and they are producing way better players than we have here in the States.

Apparently there are way more wanky, 'lets play 32nd note lines at 300 BPM' type players in these countries, and a serious dirth of pocket players who play to the song. I think I'm moving over seas to clean up the $$$.

If you as a player aspire to playing Bass like Jeff Berlin, then by all means, he has a lot of good points and is certainly an amazing technician. I just don't understand what the hell any of that really means to writing a memorable song that other non-musical people will come to love. I don't think shedding the Charlie Parker Omnibook for 12 hours a day will move you to write the next White Album.

IMO of course.

+1 here....

however, i do see that telling someone to 'groove' can be like telling someone to play 'the right notes' without any futher explanation... It's not much good telling someone to groove without trying to demonstrate techniques to improve it, eg, listening and WATCHING musicians with great feel, playing along with records - recording yourself playing with *GASP* a metronome , etc...

I'm watching the Berlin/Bailey debate now and I think it's disrespectful of Jeff to noodle while Steve is talking. I'm trying to listen and even though he's very quiet, I still hear noodling underneath what he's saying. It's very distracting.

No matter how good you are at multi-tasking if you're noodling then you're not giving someone your full attention... even after all this time he is still not even mature enough to listen to someone else's opinion even if it goes against all his beliefs... Lame. it's like your student whose parents drag them to a lesson with you even though he hates it...

hes a great guy, and an AMAZING player. However, he was around and popular at the exact same time Jaco was, and he got overshadowed and didn't take well to it.

Since then he fell out of the lime light and has tried to get back in it, but his overly aggressive and opinionated nature have made him hard to access for some. He subscribes to a theory that leaves many, including myself, very angry, and that is that the following things are USELESS:

Practice books
Form Books
Scale books
two hand tapping
(I think I remember slap as well, I may be wrong)
Instruction on fretless bass (that was a big one)
and last, as well as his largest arguement
Metronomes.

and there was a 10 or 15 part debate that he and Steve Bailey had at bass player live last year or the year before, it was interesting.

What i don't understand is how you begin without any of these things... I can understand that learning ONLY out of instructional books is not really a good idea and won't open your mind to discovering and learning things for yourself but how on earth do you know where to start without some sort of a guide... Building your own library of transcriptions, charts and exercises is great but there is no reason you can't fill it with other people's ideas and practise ideas and apply them in your own way... what's wrong with a scale book? it teaches you the notes in the scale and the way they work with different chords... doesnt mean you sit at home only running the scales up and down as fast as you can every day as your practise...

How on earth can your learn a concept of how to play in time without some sort of reference?!? i had a student who rushed when he played - speeding up walking lines, leaving out rests in bars - how can you help him without a metronome?!?! i just don't understand... you can record yourself but if you don't have a reference, how are you going to hear you're rushing?


he's so extreme thats what bugs me, there is no give or take, no balance... people are willing to give ground when they talk about their music beliefs but to me it appears he isn't...


lastly looking at the clips of him playing - the one in the other thread of him playing solar - he doesn't seem to be having that much fun does he - it's all very serious... he doesn't seem to breathe and move with the music, he just sits there notes coming out. breathing and moving with the music (within reason) helps your phrasing and your groove and your interaction with others... It's not a competition

I just think of watching someone like John Patitucci play, he can't help but openly show that he loves what he is playing from a simple groove to giant steps, and the heart that goes into it... berlin just seems to stiff by comparison...

blah blah blah, ramble ramble ramble, IMHO of course...

 

[Gintaras]

He sounds like my percussion teacher at Peabody. (back in the 70's) Beat me up all the time but later on I realized that he was always right.
I started listening to some of his stuff since this thread started. Also downloaded his latest cd from Itunes. Only listened to the first tune so far but really liked it.

This thread is like free advertising

 

[SuperDuck]

This thread is like free advertising

"The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about." - Oscar Wilde

 

[Eric Perry]

It is advertising... But the only people here are bass players. Most of us already knew of Berlin... And if we knew of him, we already knew he was a toolbag.

 

[bench]

Don't forget electric tuners, which I will never understand. What does he do, use a pitch pipe? Or you do you have to have perfect pitch in order to play bass properly?

actually he uses a pitch pipe or a note from the piano player he plays with. i think it´s good to be able to tune an instrument without a tuner, especially when playing with a piano, cause if the piano is not tuned to a 440 hz then you will automatically sound out of tune...

 

[buckeyeshakr101]

Well playing wise the dude's amazing
And I've got some pretty strong and out there opinions that a large percentage of people would loose respect for me for I'm sure
I jus think he could be a little less extreme
If a metronome works for me I don't see where he gets off saying it's worthless or w/e else
If it's too boring for him, great
Maybe magically when he first picked up the bass he was completly perfect w/ timings, and he started out excellent, and was able to play YYZ and The Real Me in the first day
But some people out there don't have such good rythm and have a hard time managing Thank You or the chorus to My Generation or I dunno Sliver on the first day
*raises hand* liek me
And so for those less 'fortunate' to not have perfect rythm and a perfect sence of time, metronomes or drum tracks are amazing boosters
If he would have said something more to the effect of he never used a metronome, and perhaps at least touched on their revelance I'da been fine
And I read that thing he said about Wooten
I'mma not get pissed at that blatant attack and jus say that while telling a swimmer not to drown may be obvious to some, there's still those little kids who play into:
You know if you see your face on the surface of the water, it means you're drowning
And will then damn near drown trying to 'save themselves'
And to be real that's not a great comparison 'cuz not drowning is an instint or w/e and people's body's naturally adjust to the air, and when theirs a lack of it, generally it's a primal instinct to get back to the air ie get out of the water
But that aside some people get caught up in exactly what they think Jeff and Wooten are doing
*immitates guitarist playin 64th notes on the 18-24th frets*
And they never pay attention to the groove that Wooten and Jeff have because one they think it comes naturally and don't realize it's revelance and two they expect that to be others jobs while their head is filled with some overblown solo they thought up a few weeks back and how much they want to play it out
And to be in the presence of somebody like Wooten and have him talk constantly about groove I would imagine would be one of the best ways to drive home to people the importance of groove
If their in the presence of Wooten and he talks only about three notes or the C major scale (ever notice how it's always C and almost always major???) I think that's the best way to pound into the heads of people who may be way off in 64th note solo land that they need to come back to groove land
I think Jeff is very ignorant in overlooking all the kids who are off in 64th note solo land
If it wernt for things liek Wootens pages and 2965436435072856743 other bass lesson things talkin about groove I may still be in 64th note solo land
(yes I do now offically like sayin 64th note solo land...)
And that thing about Jaco improvising...
Bite me
By definition I could change one note of a solo live and it would be improvising
If off the top of my head I come up w/ a diff phrasing, the effect i use, how much mid I have or don't have, I have improvised
As long as it wasn't planned before hand
So I don't see where he gets off saying it wasn't improv, because maybe Jaco jus kept a note ringing while playing something (not saying that's all it was)
Even if he doesn't think it's 64th note solo land improv (had to work it in again) it's still improv
And nobody knows who invented slap
Paehaps 10000 years ago some dude attached four strings to a chunck of wood and slaped it
Probable - eeh
Possible - def
That story about bebop solos was great
If that's his style of teaching, it has been proven to all of us that at least once it worked, and is therefore better than some teaching styles that have been thought up
More power to him
And for him to have a memory like that
Well he's a better man than I
But who is he to discredit another teaching style
Now I was born this good doesn't bother me
When ever I do somethign for my mom she often says your amazing
I say I know
But I'm not actually an arrogant bastard
I jus like to **** around
So I'm not jus here to dis him
On that I will stand up for him
And of courwse w/ all this said:
I have by no means been in his shoes
Maybe that's the way his parents were to him
And having that as his only influence, of course he would evolve to be that way in his speech and opinions
So why are we talking about him and not his parents???
Or their parents???
Etc etc etc
I may not have great amounts of respect for him as a personality, but I have sure never lived as Jeff Berlin
So by no means do I have disrespect for him
It don't always gotta be one or the other
You can not respect his views or speech, but not disrespect him
Besides as a bassist and technician he's def one to respect
So there's my thing...
He's a dick wad and as a person I'm def not to hot on him, but yes, people do need to lay off jus a bit as they have never been Mr Berlin
And seriously people lay off weight jokes - that's ****ed up

 

[buckeyeshakr101]

Holy dookie that was longer than I thought it was...
Sorry y'all...
Guess I had more to say than I thought

 

[Mongo Slade]

Like it or not, I agree with everything that was paraphrased on Wooten's site and attributed to Berlin. I also agree that you can't learn time by using a metronome; it is like learning to drive with cruise control on.
I have also found that bass players I know who do not have a strong musical understanding of their instruments frequently take refuge in the Groove or Feel Camp as if it excuses the lack of effort that they have made to really learn the musical foundation of playing the bass. For the same reason I am down on TAB. I have heard Berlin trashed for criticizing TAB, but when Anthony Jackson comes out with the same argument he is largely left alone. Why is that?
I think Jeff Berlin is on of the greatest bass players I have ever heard. As a contemporary of Jaco and Stanley he is often overlooked, and while that probably shouldn't bother him, I think it must. But Jaco and Stanley are as much revered for their legend and their larger than life personae and the bands that they played with as they are for their innovations and style. Everyone credits Jimi Hendrix as inventing over-the-top rock guitar, but weren't his contemporaries like Jeff Beck and Terry Kath just as viable and innovative? Perhaps they just lacked the flash and panache that takes someone out of the musician's closet and puts them into the mainstream spotlight.
Of course that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

Peace

 

[bench]

hes a great guy, and an AMAZING player. However, he was around and popular at the exact same time Jaco was, and he got overshadowed and didn't take well to it.

Since then he fell out of the lime light and has tried to get back in it, but his overly aggressive and opinionated nature have made him hard to access for some. He subscribes to a theory that leaves many, including myself, very angry, and that is that the following things are USELESS:

Practice books
Form Books
Scale books
two hand tapping
(I think I remember slap as well, I may be wrong)
Instruction on fretless bass (that was a big one)
and last, as well as his largest arguement
Metronomes.

and there was a 10 or 15 part debate that he and Steve Bailey had at bass player live last year or the year before, it was interesting.

This is simply not true. And this shows clearly where a lot of the misunderstanding of Berlins views lead to. He is not against practice books or dvds or magazines or whatever. He´s against any of those things IF THEY DON`T CONTAIN LESSONS THAT HE REGARDS AS IMPORTANT MUSICAL INFORMATION.

Here is another qoute from the article on V. Wootens homepage:

"Find a teacher or a school or a camp or a video or a magazine where they teach hard-core musical information at whatever level you are able to learn it! Notes, harmony, reading, transcription, ear training, writing parts, absolutely anything to do with written music, even simple music is better than the entire tablature or technique motivated educational programs that are smelling up the music educational system here in the U.S."

As for metronomes: He has a strict separation between practice and play. That means that he doesn´t want you to learn a new scale or a chord arpeggio with a click because at this moment you should better concentrate on the notes. If you´ve digested this new information you can use a metronome to use your new musical knowledge in a PLAYING situation (if you happen to not have a band with you). He states this in the debate with Bailey too. Use a metronome as a band-substitute if you want to PLAY but not if you practice new musical information.

It´s those little details that get lost which make him so easily attackable. You can do the same about his views on tapping/slapping:

It´s not that he is by heart against it. He´s simply against "teaching methods" about those things that go further than: "in slapping you hit the strings with your thumb to create a percussive sound and then you might pull the strings on your way back to let them hit the frets" because that´s all you need to know. Everything else is, in his opinion, finding MUSICAL ways of applying this technique instead of doing slap-pop octaves with a metronome in the background. He thinks that the technical aspect comes into your playing automatically as he thinks that when you play something you know and understand you will play it in time...

...you can test this yourself:

take a friend and tell him to clap the rhythm of a song that he knows...
...you´ll propably find him to be able to do so IN TIME even if he´s never seen a metronome.

Sorry for taking so much of all you nice peoples time but I felt the need to give my two cents to this because I think you really can learn a lot of him if you want/try...

Peace bench

 

[EADG mx]

That's right. Even my musical taste. Oh, who cares....

For some other players in TB, wait for my signal of purchase.

Arrogant prick plain and simple. I don't care for his playing either. I'd shell out of Bass/Nature over his school any day of the week, and I'd groove those 3 notes with a metronome.

 

[robboy]

Sorry for taking so much of all you nice peoples time but I felt the need to give my two cents to this because I think you really can learn a lot of him if you want/try...

I have to agree that you can learn a lot from Jeff. The things that he's saying are what any good music educator would tell you. He just says them in a way that rubs people the wrong way. Moreover, people take a lot of what he says out of context and confuse the issue. He is no different then a lot of old school Jazz players that I have met. They can be brutal with their honesty. Get past the attitude and listen to what he says. He's a great musician and speaks from experience.

 

[narud]

Like it or not, I agree with everything that was paraphrased on Wooten's site and attributed to Berlin. I also agree that you can't learn time by using a metronome; it is like learning to drive with cruise control on.


Peace

ive got a student that has some time issues. he can play some impressive stuff but he's constantly pushing the beat and has problems laying back (not unlike jeff ) ive been making him use a metronome and imo and by his own admission, his time and feel has gotten much better. im sticking with the metronome

 

[NJL]

who cares about jeff berlin.. go practice, people, 110% of us need to practice more anyway..

jeez

 

[Mongo Slade]

ive got a student that has some time issues. he can play some impressive stuff but he's constantly pushing the beat and has problems laying back (not unlike jeff ) ive been making him use a metronome and imo and by his own admission, his time and feel has gotten much better. im sticking with the metronome

I dunno, in my experience the only thing practicing with a metronome helped me with is playing with a metronome. Good for click track recording, but never helped me develop my time. Your mileage may vary.

Peace

 

[SuperDuck]

who cares about jeff berlin.. go practice, people, 110% of us need to practice more anyway..

jeez

To be fair, this is a discussion forum. You could cut and paste your reply for pretty much every thread ever started. Nothing we talk about is important in the grand scheme of things - why is Jeff Berlin off limits?

 

[bassrique]

That was kinda hard to read
buckeyeshakr101
My eyes and head hurt

 

[60bass]

he can play some impressive stuff but he's constantly pushing the beat and has problems laying back

Hmm, I've seen this before! Have you suggested he switch over to Guitar? Just kidding

ive been making him use a metronome and imo and by his own admission, his time and feel has gotten much better. im sticking with the metronome

I think early on, a metronome can be helpful but playing in time I feel is a skill that a person either has or doesn't have.

I know drummers, bassists, and guitar players who I've played with on and off for 30 years that still to this day have timing issues. Would that stop me from gigging with them? No, but you learn to adapt to their timing quirks. I don't enjoy playing with a drummer who has sloppy meter as I have to carry the rhythm section but I've done it many times and will probably do it again before I decide to hang it up for good.

Basically my point is that although the metronome can be a useful tool, it's just that "a tool". IMO there's nothing that will improve your ability and timing better than playing live with other musicians. Players aren't perfect, everyone is different and it makes you a better player because you learn to adapt.

As far as laying back.... In over 30 years of playing bass I've learned one thing. Less notes equals MORE steady gigs and MORE pay. That's what's worked for me. Maybe that doesn't get me into the spotlight, but it gets me steady work and pay. Besides the bright lights hurt my eyes .

 

[Spikeh]

I've only judt heard of Jeff Berlin... I looked on his website and stopped after the first sentance (not knowing anything about him or anyone elses opinions on him).

It's all well and good being an excellent player (like he is), but being a completely intollerable egomaniac is uncalled for. Modesty is a good players best tool