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What's the problem with jeff berlin?

#21
D.Don said:
Interesting thread discussing someone's persona on the internet as it was a living room discussion ... and how many of you guys really know this dude?

;)

D.Don
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That's the price of celebrity. You want people to talk about you, they talk about you. Besides, I have no doubt he loves it.

Read his bio on Myspace, for one. Then discuss how he felt it imperative to write Bass Player with the (false) news that Jaco couldn't improv after they did a feature in BP on "Havona." Then go to Link Removed and watch his debate with Steve Bailey about metronomes. He talks for a few minutes, then as Steve Bailey talks, he sits there noodling on his bass, never looking at him, like it's perfectly normal to play bass over someone trying to talk. It was extremely rude, and pretty much demonstrated to me that people who say he's arrogant may have a point.
 
#23
Eric618 said:
I'm not sure if this is true or not. Jaco was certainly arrogant. But Jeff seems to just exude condescension from every pore.

Also, don't forget Jaco was diagnosed with BPD (manic depression) and had a well documented substance abuse problem (possibly to self-medicate?). I'm not excusing his behavior, but I have to acknowledge his diagnoses played a role in his demeanor and affect.
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Jaco was a fun arrogant. He'd run into a record store, walk out with a handful of his albums and not pay for them and say they belonged to him because he recorded them, then sign them and give them to friends. He'd steal the basketball out of a street game, disappear for 5 minutes, then hard-charge back to the court dribbling the ball. He had a warm personality and a humor about him that made you want to like him even when he was being a PITA. Jeff just seems like a load.
 
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#24
He didn't say he invented slap. :rolleyes:

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He talks for a few minutes, then as Steve Bailey talks, he sits there noodling on his bass, never looking at him, like it's perfectly normal to play bass over someone trying to talk. It was extremely rude, and pretty much demonstrated to me that people who say he's arrogant may have a point.
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That's a misrepresentation as I see it. He looked at Bailey often. They interacted in a friendly and respectful way. Berlin is always moving those hands when there's a bass around his neck, as do I. The volume was very low, if turned on at all. Some of us can wiggle out fingers and listen at the same time. That's kinda the whole idea of this thing called music.

And as far as I know, "Havona" wasn't improvised on the spot as most musicians would understand the term "improvisation". This doesn't make Jaco any less great.

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So much hearsay on this thread. :scowl:

He's not my favorite player by far, but this hostility isn't deserved IMO.
 
#25
bassrique said:
He didn't say he invented slap. :rolleyes:

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That's a misrepresentation as I see it. He looked at Bailey often. They interacted in a friendly and respectful way. Berlin is always moving those hands when there's a bass around his neck, as do I. The volume was very low, if turned on at all. Some of us can wiggle out fingers and listen at the same time. That's kinda the whole idea of this thing called music.

And as far as I know, "Havona" wasn't improvised on the spot as most musicians would understand the term "improvisation". This doesn't make Jaco any less great.

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So much hearsay on this thread. :scowl:

He's not my favorite player by far, but this hostility isn't deserved IMO.
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OK, so it was a dumb idea to have them sitting there with basses in their hands to debate. "Look at us bassists having a discussion about bass with basses in our hands!" But I don't care why you do it...in a debate it's the wrong thing to do and shows like you're trying to position yourself as superior because you don't have to pay attention to the other person. So put the basses down and show some respect for the people that paid to see you debate, not noodle.

And that whole "Havona" thing was just another ploy by Jeff Berlin to put himself up there with Jaco and Stanley, even though the world at large doesn't think of him that way. He's always been jealous of Jaco and seems to like to take occasional shots at him. I don't care what anyone says about it...that was a shot.
 
#26
I'd like to read that infamous letter to the editor again. If anyone can find it, please post it. Berlin might be jealous of Jaco - I don't know. You may agree with me that some of the Jaco hero worship is a bit much. The guy's poop stunk as bad as the anyone else.

And a electric bass isn't like a sax or piano. If it isn't turned up, you can't hear squat from the audience. IIRC, they played examples of this and that at the clinic/debate. I really don't think he was showing Bailey disrespect.
 
#27
I started the other thread and it kind of got out of hand. I wanted to know if anyone knew anything more about the songs in question, especially if they knew that he and Norah Jones were friends, or something of that ilk. It ended up being about how everyone hates JB, a handful defending him, some very confusing non-English posts, and some haikus to round out the day. All in all a good thread.

I think that Jeff's own personality probably fosters the response. I don't hear people saying the same things about Michael Manring, Mike Dimin, Steve Bailey, etc. So we're all just picking on Jeff Berlin for no reason or he's _handing_ us a reason. The choice is yours to make!
 
#28
20db pad said:
Jeff keeps it real - he has strong opinions, a set way of thinking that doesn't dovetail nicely with a lot of established schools of thought, and will comment about all that in a brutally honest and unvarnished manner.

Berlin's a blowhard, but that part of his personality only seems to manifest itself in print or during a debate. I've never seen him act like that in person. He displays a passion and enthusiasm about his craft that's refreshing in a world where BS, slick talk, and charisma counts more than it should.
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And thats why he's always out touring and playing on a bunch of other peoples records, interviews in BP all the time................

Maybe, just a thought, but maybe, if he toned down all his own peacocking he would have the high profile gigs like he did back in the 80's and what not.

To be honest, besides causing a ruckus with very strong opinions and no disregard for others opinions (from what I have read), what has he really done besides BX3 in the last years?????

BTW, I think the guy is a fabulous player.
 
#29
Jeff's discussed his personality recently... and it turns out he thought people thought it was funny when he came off like a New Yawkeh Prick. Well, SURPRISE, Jeff! People just thought you were a prick. Which really isn't the case, and I know from firsthand experience. He's not the gentlest guy in the world when it comes to discussion on things he's passionate about and things you disagree with him on, but I suspect neither are a lot of TBers.

So Jeff, buddy? Please? Knock it off. Thanks, dude.

Jeff was another one of my instructors at MI; I'd hang out in his "Open Counseling" room whenever I had the chance (it was always packed). Once I asked him how to go about playing a bebop bass solo, and his response was "Well, do you know what a bebop bass solo sounds like?" I said sure, and he said, "Okay, so play one for me!" I felt like an idiot. When I said that I couldn't do it, he replied, "That's because you don't know what a bebop solo sounds like on bass." And that was the end of that discussion.

After being angry with the extremely rude way that he dealt with my question, it occurred to me that he was right - I DIDN'T know what one really sounded like, because I was too intimidated by the fact that they were going so fast for me to really pay close attention. So I went back to the apartment and got some of the records out, and slowed them down so I could hear what was going on better, and began to work on paying attention to the SOUND of a bebop bass solo (or any bebop solo, for that matter). Practice, practice...

A few months later I was back in his OC room, and out of the blue, he said to me, "Hey - did you ever figure out what a bebop solo sounds like?" I smiled, and said, "Yes, I did, Jeff - it sounds kinda like this:" And played a short solo over the first few bars of "Confirmation". Jeff smiled, and said, "YES! NOW you know what a bass solo sounds like!"

So, in his own I'm-better-than-you-punk fashion, he did manage to get me to learn something. I wasn't crazy about his methods, but I can't argue with the results. Is that fair?
 
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#30
I could never hate Jeff Berlin...one of my favorite musicians ever!!!
Talking about his opinions and teaching way, I know that sometimes he can be someway a bit rough, but on many cases I think the guy exactly knows what he's saying...I learned a lot of things from his BP columns or just reading his posts on his site...
 
#33
Does Jeff seriously think that Vic's camps are only about playing 3 notes and grooving? That's the most asinine thing he's ever written. No, it's about being to make 3 notes groove. There's a big huge difference.

No wonder everyone likes Vic way more than Jeff. Vic makes it fun. Jeff makes it into work. Boy, talk about trying to latch onto someone else for your own aggrandizement!
 
#35
Grueber said:
I don't know if this is old or not, but I happen to be checking out victor's website today when I noticed he posted something from Jeff on his main page.

http://victorwooten.com/

:eek::ninja:
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Here's an excerpt I found interesting:

Jeff Berlin, On Victor's site:
It is important to groove, but it is not worth the tuition that you spent to hear this. Telling a musician to groove is liking telling a swimmer not to drown. It is simply not worth dealing with except in a passing manner. I figure that teachers who teach their charges that grooving is important do this because they probably have little else to offer in regards to true musical information
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That makes sense that he would have a view such as this, seeing as how I personally think his music has ZERO groove to it, and he generally IMO sounds like an annoying trombone that plays WAY too far on top of the beat.

Another good one:

The Germans, the French, the Venezuelans, the Chinese are killing us in regards to musical education and they are producing way better players than we have here in the States.
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Apparently there are way more wanky, 'lets play 32nd note lines at 300 BPM' type players in these countries, and a serious dirth of pocket players who play to the song. I think I'm moving over seas to clean up the $$$.

If you as a player aspire to playing Bass like Jeff Berlin, then by all means, he has a lot of good points and is certainly an amazing technician. I just don't understand what the hell any of that really means to writing a memorable song that other non-musical people will come to love. I don't think shedding the Charlie Parker Omnibook for 12 hours a day will move you to write the next White Album.

IMO of course.
 
#38
Well, one thing is VERY true regarding Jeff's words about teaching how to "groove".
You can't.

You don't "teach" a baby how to walk, they learn it from watching and reacting to their environment.

So if you live under a mushroom and pay little or no attention to how a note falls in relation to a beat and maybe how to push or lay back, naturally you would think that groove is a passing item on the list.
Again, you can't teach it IMO, but if you are never exposed to it, and think it's maybe a waste of time, except in a passing manner", obviously you think that "It is important to groove".
Passing manner.......important..........well, if it's important, why place it in a passing manner?

When is Jeff playing with Chick Corea again??? Oh wait, Tal Wilkenfeld is.........
 
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