When does it click in?

[mikeyjm2]

As always, the response on this site is thoughtful and helpful. Really appreciate everyone's comments.

I fully expected the encouragement to play with others, play in a band, etc. Undoubtedly playing with other musicians would improve my playing. Here's the thing: I'm not young, so joining a band with young people is not in the cards. I have older acquaintances who get together to play guitar and I could join them, but their musical tastes and my musical tastes are not in line. I could live happily live the rest of my life without hearing another CCR or Lynard Skynard song, much less having to listen to them and me hack away at it. They're also into lengthy blues jams. While I fully recognize the utility of any type of live playing, the thought of blues jamming with other old men is a bit depressing (and I love the blues). Church is another possibility, but my church plays traditional hymns with an organist and a vocalist exclusively, so no bass needed there.

My work is math oriented, so music theory fascinates me, as do patterns on the fretboard. This may lead to an over emphasis on scales, modes and chord construction, but I enjoy it. When I started, I worked almost exclusively on learning and playing songs I like. I ended up being able to play the songs, and my fingering improved, but I was learning zero in the way of improvisation, hence the lessons.

My teacher is a well-known bassist in Atlanta and has a full teaching schedule. He encourages a mix of theory, exercises and song playing. He also strongly suggested playing with others, but he knows I'm not so inclined. What he has told me is that when he performs or records he's often given a key or chord progression and is expected to deliver the goods with only that direction. He's demonstrated many times how he does it, and it sure sounds musical.

All of us have different musical aspirations, and I'm the first to admit that mine are out of the mainstream. So perhaps my journey will have bigger or different bumps than most. Playing bass has given me a deeper appreciation of music and tremendous respect for the instrument and those who play well. I'm delighted when I learn a new song, or get better at any aspect of playing. Hope it keeps coming.

Thanks again for everyone's thoughts.

I was ready to jump on the bandwagon and suggest jamming with others. Actually, I still think that's sound advice. Personal anecdote:

When I first starting playing with the group of folks I'm with now, the music wasn't really my thing. We do just about all originals, and the covers we do we put our own spin on. Not sure what to call the genre we play. Folksy, eclectic with an alternative rock-ish twist? I don't know and neither does anyone else in the band really. But over time, the music grew on me, and working out my original basslines to the material has made me a better player. For context, I'm 47 years old now and have been playing bass, guitar (loosely) and keyboards since the age of 10 or so. I do record some stuff on my own as well as with this current band. Anyway, point being that you shouldn't close your mind to playing stuff you don't necessarily love. Play it anyway and you'll likely be better for the experience. When does it "click"? I have no idea honestly, but I think it's more gradual rather than a sudden thing. More context: I am not a professional musician and neither are the folks I play with. I work in a technical field myself (electrical design / drafting stuff).

 

[Lobster11]

Definitely improving, slowly but surely. Some days I play pretty well and feel I'm advancing and other days it's not so great, but I understand this is a normal part of the learning process. Also, I understand different people progress at different rates.

It sounds like might be getting a little discouraged by your "slow" progress, but you've probably made a LOT more progress than you realize. It's difficult to notice or gauge your progress when you're comparing one day to the next.

Otherwise, I agree with everyone who suggests that you need to get out and play with other folks, even if it's jamming on CCR or blues tunes with a bunch of other old dudes. You'll be amazed at how much different this is than sitting at home and practicing alone, and I'll bet you'll enjoy it way more than you think. To me, one of the great rewards of playing are those moments when you find yourself locked in with the rest of the band, and you have the experience of being part of something that's greater than the sum of the parts. You'll never have that experience practicing alone!

 

[Liam Wald]

I have been playing bass for 49 years. My biggest breakthroughs came (about 20 years ago) when I realized that music was not a competition and that I didn't need to impress anyone. That gave me the freedom to stop trying to sound like other players and allow my own style to emerge. As others have said, it is a truly amazing feeling when you spontaneously play something you have never played before and have no idea where it came from.

 

[the federalist]

Otherwise, I agree with everyone who suggests that you need to get out and play with other folks, even if it's jamming on CCR or blues tunes with a bunch of other old dudes. You'll be amazed at how much different this is than sitting at home and practicing alone, and I'll bet you'll enjoy it way more than you think.

Have to agree with this, and similar comments from others. Last Saturday at my lesson we were practicing latin bass lines. I commented to my teacher that while I am very familiar with latin music (by virtue of marriage to a Cuban woman) and admire the musicianship, I enjoy it only in small doses. My teacher agreed, however we both said that we like playing latin music. So your point is well taken.

 

[Liam Wald]

Regardless of not being your ideal taste, I say have a go at the CCR and skynard. It's incredible how much you can enjoy playing music you hate.

It doesn't have to be for a great length of time, just a bit to get the feel of it.

This is great advice. Use YouTube to play along with songs a few times through and then look at the YouTube suggestion list on the right and pick another song.
Pretend you are sitting in with a band and play lots of songs. This is way better than sitting and playing scales. You will learn to listen, identify the key that the song is in and the chord changes. You will also get a sense of dynamics, and be exposed to lots of different "grooves".
In addition to almost every song ever recorded, YouTube has hundreds of "backing tracks" to play along with and expose yourself to multiple genres.
Do this for a while and you will feel confident sitting in with bands.

 

[ArtechnikA]

...the thought of blues jamming with other old men is a bit depressing (and I love the blues).

Why?
OK - it does not matter why, really.
If you have the opportunity to play the music you love, go for it. (I do, I am -- and I'm 61...)
So what music _do_ you want to play? Not Southern Rock, Not Blues - still leaves a lot of open territory.
I'd suggest jazz, but it can be _really_ intimidating. Still if you love it, it's something to aspire to and work towards.

I think theory is wonderful in its own right and I could certainly do with knowing more of it - but theory is not music any more than the alphabet is literature. Play along with recorded tracks - YouTube, your record collection, radio. You'll still learn more playing with other people but it's OK to take small steps. And it may take a while to find the right group of other people. I've been looking for a year and still not quite found the right mix...

But stop playing notes - start playing music...

 

[Ric5]

As always, the response on this site is thoughtful and helpful. Really appreciate everyone's comments.

I fully expected the encouragement to play with others, play in a band, etc. Undoubtedly playing with other musicians would improve my playing. Here's the thing: I'm not young, so joining a band with young people is not in the cards. I have older acquaintances who get together to play guitar and I could join them, but their musical tastes and my musical tastes are not in line. I could live happily live the rest of my life without hearing another CCR or Lynard Skynard song, much less having to listen to them and me hack away at it. They're also into lengthy blues jams. While I fully recognize the utility of any type of live playing, the thought of blues jamming with other old men is a bit depressing (and I love the blues). Church is another possibility, but my church plays traditional hymns with an organist and a vocalist exclusively, so no bass needed there.

My work is math oriented, so music theory fascinates me, as do patterns on the fretboard. This may lead to an over emphasis on scales, modes and chord construction, but I enjoy it. When I started, I worked almost exclusively on learning and playing songs I like. I ended up being able to play the songs, and my fingering improved, but I was learning zero in the way of improvisation, hence the lessons.

My teacher is a well-known bassist in Atlanta and has a full teaching schedule. He encourages a mix of theory, exercises and song playing. He also strongly suggested playing with others, but he knows I'm not so inclined. What he has told me is that when he performs or records he's often given a key or chord progression and is expected to deliver the goods with only that direction. He's demonstrated many times how he does it, and it sure sounds musical.

All of us have different musical aspirations, and I'm the first to admit that mine are out of the mainstream. So perhaps my journey will have bigger or different bumps than most. Playing bass has given me a deeper appreciation of music and tremendous respect for the instrument and those who play well. I'm delighted when I learn a new song, or get better at any aspect of playing. Hope it keeps coming.

Thanks again for everyone's thoughts.

Get on Craigslist and you will find someone to jam with ...

 

[DwaynieAD]

As always, the response on this site is thoughtful and helpful. Really appreciate everyone's comments.

I fully expected the encouragement to play with others, play in a band, etc. Undoubtedly playing with other musicians would improve my playing. Here's the thing: I'm not young, so joining a band with young people is not in the cards. I have older acquaintances who get together to play guitar and I could join them, but their musical tastes and my musical tastes are not in line. I could live happily live the rest of my life without hearing another CCR or Lynard Skynard song, much less having to listen to them and me hack away at it. They're also into lengthy blues jams. While I fully recognize the utility of any type of live playing, the thought of blues jamming with other old men is a bit depressing (and I love the blues). Church is another possibility, but my church plays traditional hymns with an organist and a vocalist exclusively, so no bass needed there.

My work is math oriented, so music theory fascinates me, as do patterns on the fretboard. This may lead to an over emphasis on scales, modes and chord construction, but I enjoy it. When I started, I worked almost exclusively on learning and playing songs I like. I ended up being able to play the songs, and my fingering improved, but I was learning zero in the way of improvisation, hence the lessons.

My teacher is a well-known bassist in Atlanta and has a full teaching schedule. He encourages a mix of theory, exercises and song playing. He also strongly suggested playing with others, but he knows I'm not so inclined. What he has told me is that when he performs or records he's often given a key or chord progression and is expected to deliver the goods with only that direction. He's demonstrated many times how he does it, and it sure sounds musical.

All of us have different musical aspirations, and I'm the first to admit that mine are out of the mainstream. So perhaps my journey will have bigger or different bumps than most. Playing bass has given me a deeper appreciation of music and tremendous respect for the instrument and those who play well. I'm delighted when I learn a new song, or get better at any aspect of playing. Hope it keeps coming.

Thanks again for everyone's thoughts.

Sounds to me like the biggest hurdle you have to it clicking is a refusal to step outside your comfort zone.

 

[the federalist]

I would add the following to what's been said.

One incredibly useful skill is the ability to hear what chord, or relative chord is being played. So if you play a song with other musicians all you need to know is the main key, say C major. Then learning the intervals 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc means that when the chord changes you can recognise the interval and play accordingly. This is so incredibly useful that for me it should be the main focus of practice. In learning the interval and relative chords you also tap into music theory and understand how songs are structured.

If all you knew was where the notes are on the bass and you had the above interval-recognition skill - you could walk in on almost any gig/band practice and start playing.

You can practice this easily by listening to childrens songs (because they are simple and repetitive) or simple pop songs and start playing along.

This for me is the most fundamental skill and I'm annoyed it took me so long to acquire it.

Davo

This nails it for me. This skill is extremely desirable, as it allows one to play any type of music.

I appear to have given some people the impression that I don't learn and practice songs. Absent the bit of discipline I have, that's all I'd do. It takes effort for me to learn chords and intervals, and it can be boring. But the payoff seems to be great. I know how to play many songs, and greatly enjoy it, but learning songs without understanding theory, and then one day having the light bulb come on about theory seems backwards to me.

Thanks for the tip on children's songs. Makes a lot of sense. I've been focusing on old country songs, as the chord progression is usually obvious.

 

[Tom Bomb]

You've got a good approach and you have a good sense of how it is already. Early on there are going to be sometimes longish periods where it's hard to notice any improvement at all - there's a lot going on, taking everything into consideration - but every now and again there will be great leaps forward. The euphoria you'll feel are the unmistakable signposts, when you're really making music.

As you move on, these leaps will become more frequent until, after some time, hardly a day will go by where you're not discovering something profound. At this stage you're set. Made in the shade. Every minute of every day will be informed by patterns and rhythms of the music inside you, whether you're playing it at the time or not.

You'll walk music, you'll talk music, you'll chop music, you'll think music, you'll dream music. There won't be an aspect of your life that's not enhanced by your music. Life will never be the same again. So apply yourself, as you're doing… then sit back and enjoy the ride. Respect!

"Your limitations will define you in the best way. Your limitations make you who you are."
John Mayer

 

[Lobster11]

Thanks for the tip on children's songs. Makes a lot of sense. I've been focusing on old country songs, as the chord progression is usually obvious.

What I like to use children's songs for -- along with Christmas carols and old TV-show themes -- is just figuring out how to play the melodies. Those kinds of songs are especially good because they are so etched into your brain, and you can mentally "play" them on demand. Great ear training for intervals, and you don't even need to have a recording handy!

 

[Kmonk]

I hate to say it but it might never click in. I have a friend who tried to learn to play guitar in high school. I also started playing at about the same time. He practiced a lot more than I did but for some reason, I was able to pick things up more quickly. I was playing in a band about a year after I started but he never really improved to the level where he could play in a band. He decided to learn sound engineering instead and became a very god sound man. He still plays guitar but isn't much better than he was 30 years ago. Some people have a natural ability that can be improved with practice. It's kind of like playing sports. Some people become great athletes while others who practice more often never play in anything other than a pick up league.

The most important thing is that if you enjoy it, keep playing.

 

[s0c9]

As always, the response on this site is thoughtful and helpful. Really appreciate everyone's comments.

I fully expected the encouragement to play with others, play in a band, etc. Undoubtedly playing with other musicians would improve my playing. Here's the thing: I'm not young, so joining a band with young people is not in the cards. I have older acquaintances who get together to play guitar and I could join them, but their musical tastes and my musical tastes are not in line. I could live happily live the rest of my life without hearing another CCR or Lynard Skynard song, much less having to listen to them and me hack away at it. They're also into lengthy blues jams. While I fully recognize the utility of any type of live playing, the thought of blues jamming with other old men is a bit depressing (and I love the blues). Church is another possibility, but my church plays traditional hymns with an organist and a vocalist exclusively, so no bass needed there.

My work is math oriented, so music theory fascinates me, as do patterns on the fretboard. This may lead to an over emphasis on scales, modes and chord construction, but I enjoy it. When I started, I worked almost exclusively on learning and playing songs I like. I ended up being able to play the songs, and my fingering improved, but I was learning zero in the way of improvisation, hence the lessons.

My teacher is a well-known bassist in Atlanta and has a full teaching schedule. He encourages a mix of theory, exercises and song playing. He also strongly suggested playing with others, but he knows I'm not so inclined. What he has told me is that when he performs or records he's often given a key or chord progression and is expected to deliver the goods with only that direction. He's demonstrated many times how he does it, and it sure sounds musical.

All of us have different musical aspirations, and I'm the first to admit that mine are out of the mainstream. So perhaps my journey will have bigger or different bumps than most. Playing bass has given me a deeper appreciation of music and tremendous respect for the instrument and those who play well. I'm delighted when I learn a new song, or get better at any aspect of playing. Hope it keeps coming.

Thanks again for everyone's thoughts.

with all due respect - and no offence intended - my summation of your reply above is excuses, excuses! Atlanta is a major metro area, and to say you can't find some like-minded folks or a group who would accept someone of your perceived skill level is highly improbable - unless you are 85+ and on stix! It sounds like you are an academic who's over analyzing the whole thing.

FWIW - I'm "old" too, and do about 70+ gigs a year.. and plan on doing so until I can no longer handle the late nights and late night driving. No.. I did not start playing when I was 4 yrs old. I started later than many at about 35.. along with job, kids, wife, house, mortgage, pets, yard, etc... Yeah, I've been playing much longer than you, but having been there, done that. I understand! I've been playing bass for about 3 yrs. Prior to that, about 15+ yrs on guitar. Yes, the practical experience of playing guitar in bands helped the transition dramatically, but it doesn't change the trepidation of being comfortable enough to say you're ready to play with others. Sometimes you just have to take that leap of faith!

I watch/see/hear old guys playing country and blues at some of the Sun night open mic jams I occasionally attend. Some are great, some are good, and [quite honestly] some should have stayed home. But, there they are letting it hang out..!!

Sounds like you should be doing something similar if you want to take that step up to the next level. We're all still learning, it's baby steps... and honestly.. at some point, you have to help yourself.
My $0.02.

 

[Big Hoss]

My biggest musical leaps are made playing with other musicians. Don't stop practice but do play with at least a drum track and a guitarist...

 

[wrench45us]

I'm an old guy and I started on bass old, so I don't expect to things to click all that much.
My focus was playing walking bass, so I've been working at that for maybe 3 years. I'm to the point where I can read transcriptions of predominantly quarter notes and it sounds decent. Not great, given hesitations and redos that wouldn't be acceptable in a band setting (which is one more reason it's good to play with a band)
And I also really like the theory and the patterns and that aspect of learning and playing.
Recently it occurred to me that playing somebody's lesson or transcription isn't really what I want. I want to create my own basslines in real time. I have enough background now, so I'm going back and starting from the beginning on a couple of books with that in mind.
So what I'm working on is adding a layer to that I'm here on this chord and I want to get to that chord and I have how many beats to do that -- now think of 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 ways to get from here to there. The patterns are all about that, but you have to add that layer of knowing where you are and where you're going. Before I was happy just to be reading. Eventually even that thinking needs to go away because you really can't think fast enough to do what needs to be done, but given enough training you can listen fast enough to do what needs to be done.
Now you have a great advantage in having a teacher to help all this along. And playing in a band, playing songs is about listening -- you learn to listen.

 

[Celtic59]

Great advise being doled out here, yep, playing with a band is where it all finally "clicks", you WILL know when that happens, and you'll never forget that moment as long as you live. Better to get out there playing ASAP, even if it's not your "dream" gig, just to get in there with a drummer, guitarist and singer, or whatever the line-up is, you'll be DOING IT.

 

[bobdabilder]

I've been playing bass for two years now (played guitar before that for years). Been taking lessons most of that time. I have switched instructors 3 times. Each time i change instructors, i have some more clarity. I've been playing with a guitarist for about 4 months now. we're writing our own music. I/we don't play covers. I will, however, analyze a song to see some of the progressions in it. all of this leads me to my point: for me, it took about two years before I was just making up bass lines comfortably. I'm not on tour but I can come up with some decent lines on my own. I practice about an hour a day. scales, modes, timing, playing ahead, playing behind the beat, and when I make up a line, i record it then add to it to make it a song. I just jam to a loop pedal at different tempos. I normally read chord charts. at this juncture of my playing, I am benefiting from playing with others because they make me apply what I've learned.

good luck.

 

[Spin Doctor]

...Undoubtedly playing with other musicians would improve my playing. Here's the thing: I'm not young, so joining a band with young people is not in the cards.... (snip)

The age thing doesn't matter. I'll be 55 next month. My guitarist is 23 and the drummer is 28. They don't care about my age as long as I put in the work and vice versa. We started a jazz band a couple of years ago and have been gigging ever since. We took about 3 months to build a 3 hour setlist of tunes and then built a client base. When I started it, I had been taking lessons, learning scales, played in a few blues and cover bands etc. and I later decided I wanted to learn to play jazz since that music is my first love. Sounds like you are headed down the same road, but I know for a fact, there is no way you can learn what you want to learn without being in a jazz band.

Having said all that, if you've never been in a band at all, hanging with the older dudes and getting a handle on how to gig would be a better first step, as Ewo mentioned. I haven't really been playing that long, but I had been in a few bands before the jazz thing came up and it helped a lot. I love playing those old southern rock tunes. I love the blues. That stuff is a blast to play.

Anyway, if you really don't want to be in a band, that's fine, but it really can be a lot of fun (and a lot of work). But my opinion is that playing a bass is pretty close to pointless without the interaction of other folks. I'm really just now after 2 years of steady gigging stating to get a decent handle on improvising and soloing. The audience tended to like what I was doing, but I knew it was not that great. But constantly working on it has gotten my playing to a point where I can play what I want to hear a good bit of the time lately. I still have those, "man that sucked" moments, but I do know you absolutely cannot learn jazz in a vacuum, sitting in your basement.

 

[the federalist]

with all due respect - and no offence intended - my summation of your reply above is excuses, excuses! Atlanta is a major metro area, and to say you can't find some like-minded folks or a group who would accept someone of your perceived skill level is highly improbable - unless you are 85+ and on stix! It sounds like you are an academic who's over analyzing the whole thing.

FWIW - I'm "old" too, and do about 70+ gigs a year.. and plan on doing so until I can no longer handle the late nights and late night driving. No.. I did not start playing when I was 4 yrs old. I started later than many at about 35.. along with job, kids, wife, house, mortgage, pets, yard, etc... Yeah, I've been playing much longer than you, but having been there, done that. I understand! I've been playing bass for about 3 yrs. Prior to that, about 15+ yrs on guitar. Yes, the practical experience of playing guitar in bands helped the transition dramatically, but it doesn't change the trepidation of being comfortable enough to say you're ready to play with others. Sometimes you just have to take that leap of faith!

I watch/see/hear old guys playing country and blues at some of the Sun night open mic jams I occasionally attend. Some are great, some are good, and [quite honestly] some should have stayed home. But, there they are letting it hang out..!!

Sounds like you should be doing something similar if you want to take that step up to the next level. We're all still learning, it's baby steps... and honestly.. at some point, you have to help yourself.
My $0.02.

The great Ray Davies penned a song, "I'm Not Like Everybody Else". That's me.

The many people who encourage playing with others undoubtedly offer sound advice. I reflected on playing in bands, jam sessions, etc. As the immortal Brian Wilson once wrote, "That's Not Me". I don't care for bars, I don't like being out late, I don't like driving, much less late night driving. I don't want to play music I don't like. I'll keep my eyes open for opportunities, but in the meantime I'll keep playing along with YouTube and practicing as much as I can.

If the price I pay for this is not developing my skills to the extent I otherwise might, so be it. I enjoy the instrument, I enjoy the sound, I enjoy the intellectual aspects of music as well as the musical aspects. In short, I'm pleased with where I'm at and comfortable with the approach I'm taking. Others will take a more conventional route and they may leave me in the dust. If so, God bless.

My original question was whether conceptual understanding and playing ability take a great leap forward at some point. Based on the comments here, clearly not for most people.

Again, I greatly appreciate every single comment.

 

[BassShark]

Playing/learning/practicing about a year now.

Taking weekly lesson with competent instructor.

Practice every day at least 30 minutes, and most often 1+ hours: scales, chords, learning fretboard, reading music, fingering exercises, playing simple songs, hand position. I use a metronome.

Definitely improving, slowly but surely. Some days I play pretty well and feel I'm advancing and other days it's not so great, but I understand this is a normal part of the learning process. Also, I understand different people progress at different rates.

My short term goals are to be able to read music competently, to be able to improvise a bit, to be able to move around the fretboard easily, to have good tone, and to stay in time when the going gets tough.

My question is, is there a time when it all comes together and I can consider myself no longer a beginner? I look forward to moving beyond the basics and focusing on refinement.

When I was learning a second language, the day arrived when I realized I was no longer translating what I heard into English, but rather was understanding what I heard in the second language. Similarly, I no longer had to think about grammar when I spoke, the words just came out. Is there a similar point with the bass where everything clicks in?

All of those things are important, but as has been said, nothing gets your playing together quite like regular gigging. The reason is that you don't want to disappoint fellow band members or the audience, it disciplines you and playing in front of an audience toughens you up. Try to get in a band with musicians who are better players than yourself. Not good for your ego but great for your playing!