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When does it click in?

#61
the federalist said:
The great Ray Davies penned a song, "I'm Not Like Everybody Else". That's me.

The many people who encourage playing with others undoubtedly offer sound advice. I reflected on playing in bands, jam sessions, etc. As the immortal Brian Wilson once wrote, "That's Not Me". I don't care for bars, I don't like being out late, I don't like driving, much less late night driving. I don't want to play music I don't like. I'll keep my eyes open for opportunities, but in the meantime I'll keep playing along with YouTube and practicing as much as I can.

If the price I pay for this is not developing my skills to the extent I otherwise might, so be it. I enjoy the instrument, I enjoy the sound, I enjoy the intellectual aspects of music as well as the musical aspects. In short, I'm pleased with where I'm at and comfortable with the approach I'm taking. Others will take a more conventional route and they may leave me in the dust. If so, God bless.

My original question was whether conceptual understanding and playing ability take a great leap forward at some point. Based on the comments here, clearly not for most people.

Again, I greatly appreciate every single comment.
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Well, now that we get your point of view that makes it easy. My prediction is that you will eventually have a very good command of the theory and the intellectual aspects of music, but your overall playing and musicianship will always just be passable at best. There may be a few light bulb moments, but just insofar as you will understand some theory concept better than before.

It's never gonna really "click" because you made the conscious decision to leave out a key component in musical development. I'm not judging your decision. If it makes sense for you, that's great! But I don't think it's ever really gonna "click" as you asked about. I could be wrong, as that has been known to happen, lol.

Having said that, I really enjoy practicing and working on the theory part of music, putting those puzzle pieces together so if you dig that, just do your thing and don't worry.
 
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#62
the federalist said:
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My original question was whether conceptual understanding and playing ability take a great leap forward at some point. Based on the comments here, clearly not for most people.

Again, I greatly appreciate every single comment.
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To the bolded text above, my response would be like most others.. no!

One cannot take a mathematical perspective on music and suddenly be "good". To be sure, music theory tends to support that goal, but the reality is that it's much like the physics of racing cars, what's missing is the human element. You can teach/study/practice the material until you're blue in the face, put folks in simulators, do laps on the track, but until you do it for real (ie. race with others).. it all pales by comparison. I guess that's why we humans do this stuff!

If you've never played with others, felt the chemistry, been in the groove, pocket, etc. there's nothing that one can learn, or be taught that is a substitute. It comes from experience, the moment and that human element. I'm no pro. Started way to late (and was always much better at my chosen career path) and never wanted to make music a full time job or become a famous musician. But.. I have had the pleasure over the years of playing with some incredibly talented (known and non-famous) folks. When it gels, it's like that infamous hole-in-one in golf! Exhilarating! Keeps one focused and working hard to get better to have a repeat!

And I get your situation... and given that, doing what you're doing seems to be the best approach. I'm not sure I'd be setting you up for anything but disappointment if I said that it will click for you at some.

Hopefully, I'm wrong. Best wishes on your journey! :)
 
#63
the federalist said:
My question is, is there a time when it all comes together and I can consider myself no longer a beginner? I look forward to moving beyond the basics and focusing on refinement.
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Get yourself in front of an audience.

IME as a player and teacher, you don't really feel like you've accomplished something the way you do when you perform and entertain even a small room.

Any audience will do. It doesn't have to be a professional setting like a night club. I used to provide recital opportunities for my students at local rec centers and school gyms. Ask your teacher if he does this or knows other teachers who do.

It is one of the single most empowering things a musician can do. Play one piece of music competently for an audience. Get a round of applause.
 
#66
I'm going to go harsher.

I hate to say this, but maybe bass is not the instrument for you, or maybe just not what your primary instrument should be. A bass is an ensemble instrument and generally it is only going to get you so far solo. (there are exceptions, particularly with extended range basses).

From the learning and intellectual standpoint you may have a much better result from learning piano. Theory wise you can get a lot from having the keyboard layed out in front of you and linear (with no repeated notes all over the fretboard). I have told many people that keyboard training can only help their playing with other instruments. The other benefit is that after a while you could play all by yourself and not be thought strange for it.
 
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#68
BazzTard said:
you've had enough lessons. Time to play with others.

This is where you really progress, or fall flat on your face.

To re-use the language analogy, you know some words,and a bit about grammar. You now need to start conversations with others. Put sentences together.
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I agree, jam with other people. And when you're with your instructor ask if he can teach you stuff that you want to learn.....if your not really interested in the music, you wont pay attention as much
 
#70
I love the language analogy. As some one who learned a foreign language and began playing well into adulthood I find the analogy powerful. But, think about this for a minute. People don't learn their own language by studying in books and learning grammar. They learn from copying others and slowly beginning to understand context. If all you're doing is studying scales and theory you're focusing on the grammar before you've learned the language. I'd recommend that you focus on your ears and listening. This is coming from someone who did exactly what you're doing. I focused on technique and reading and theory. It's helped to bridge the gap when my ears weren't able to figure something out. But, if you want it to click like a language you have to focus first and foremost on your ear training. It's where I'm spending 80% of my efforts right now.
 
#71
Can't say exactly when but it doesn't happen until you start playing songs with real people in a band scenario. Try to forget about what you are doing theoretically and listen /feel the drummer. You ll know youve got the power when you can control the song by varying your attack. I play guitar and it's fun. Like surfing a wave. Playing bass is like BEING the wave.
 
#73
chicagodoubler said:
There's always more to learn. I started playing cello as a toddler, bass as a teen, and have not had another gig (besides teaching) since high school... And just today I realized I was playing the low G on the E string wrong.

The journey is the fun part. The destination is an illusion. :)
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There is a wrong way to play G on the E string? The only wrong ways I can think of would be F# or G#.

Ian Anderson of Jethro Tull started learning to play the flute properly in the 90's after his daughter told him he was doing it wrong.
 
#74
I agree with many here- when I started bass 30 years ago I told my teacher I wanted to learn Wraithchild by Iron Maiden and Aces High--- for my 2nd and 3rd lessons we worked on THOSE songs. Yes I spent some time on basics and playing 1-2-3-4 up the fret exercises. But i was playing songs within a week of picking up the bass (or at least making a valiant attempt)
 
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#75
the federalist said:
They're also into lengthy blues jams. While I fully recognize the utility of any type of live playing, the thought of blues jamming with other old men is a bit depressing (and I love the blues).
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Do you mind if I ask why? Particularly if you love the Blues. If you haven't tried it how do you know?
While some blues jams can be monotonous they can also be quite trance inducing. And with the basic structure of a twelve bar it allows you to try different ways of playing the same chord (inversions, different octaves all over the fretboard etc) and different ways to lead into and out of chords. You just might find it as intellectually stimulating as the theory.

If that is still too much of s stretch you can find plenty of blues progressions on the net to play along to, many of which can have the bass taken out so you can fill it. I only recently was pointed to WikiLoops. While i haven't tried it myself yet I just had a look and by selecting "Blues" and excluding "Bass" it came up with 598 songs that have no bass. Invalid Link Removed It's nowhere near the same as playing with real musicians but it is a start and if you enjoy it it might provide the impetus to get together with real people. I only picked blues as an example but there is every kind of genre there to try.

Or you could ignore this completely and keep going the way you are...... as long as it's fun for you.
 
#76
BAG said:
If that is still too much of s stretch you can find plenty of blues progressions on the net to play along to, many of which can have the bass taken out so you can fill it. I only recently was pointed to WikiLoops. While i haven't tried it myself yet I just had a look and by selecting "Blues" and excluding "Bass" it came up with 598 songs that have no bass. Invalid Link Removed It's nowhere near the same as playing with real musicians but it is a start and if you enjoy it it might provide the impetus to get together with real people. I only picked blues as an example but there is every kind of genre there to try.
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Terrific. Wasn't aware of this site, but it looks great. Thanks so much.
 
#77
the federalist said:
My question is, is there a time when it all comes together and I can consider myself no longer a beginner? I look forward to moving beyond the basics and focusing on refinement.
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In my experience, various sounds and concepts "click in" in tiny chunks over time:
Learning is an endless succession of "aha" moments.
So rather than worry about some distant point when it all clicks,
Look forward to the next small "aha" moment,
when some specific and particular sound or idea is grasped.
 
#78
Yes, if it makes your hand hurt or your playing it out of tune on a fretless instrument, it definitely is wrong. Eureka moments happen through the entirety of our musical journey. Sometimes it's the simplest possible thing that needs improvement...


moody said:
There is a wrong way to play G on the E string? The only wrong ways I can think of would be F# or G#.

Ian Anderson of Jethro Tull started learning to play the flute properly in the 90's after his daughter told him he was doing it wrong.
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#79
the federalist said:
Undoubtedly playing with other musicians would improve my playing. Here's the thing: I'm not young, so joining a band with young people is not in the cards.
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You don't have to join a band. Musical taste doesn't even necessarily factor in either. I play lots of music styles that I don't really like to listen to. I have grown the most as a bass player when I have jammed with other people, and we did original music. You don't need a full band either. Find a guitarist and just jam with him (or her). When they start to solo, you are the only thing keeping the timing going. Talk about learning to lock it down. This will do it. As the guitar plays the rhythm parts, you can explore those scales you have been practicing endlessly. You will learn when to keep it simple and when to add a little flash. Less is often more. You will find that when it is just you and a guitar player.

The language analogy you used is a good one. Here is Victor Wooten talking about the exact same thing you are questioning. It makes a lot of sense.

 
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#80
Jughead6 said:
I have a full time job, family, household maintenance, pets, taxes etc. etc. etc. to make my life miserable. Learning scales would push me over the edge. For me, bass is enjoyable because I can pretend that rules don't apply. I just pick up a bass and play the songs on my bands set-list or anything cool I have heard on the radio. And I don't try to emulate others - I put my own interpretation on songs. That way, I avoid the pass-or-fail judgements that seem to apply in almost every other facet of life. Being in an amateur band is great fun, and I like to think it has made me a better listener and "team player" (I wonder if the enjoyment would be any less in a professional band..?).

Your teacher would probably say my technique is cr@p, but... meh... I understand and accept that I will never be a studio/session musician. I am just content to have found a hobby that I can enjoy for the rest of my life.

$0.02. Whatever works for you, dude. If scales don't float your boat... don't play them!
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I have played with very good musicians over the years , 47 to be exact , years that is and cannot read a note ...nobody has ever been less than happy with my playing...
 

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