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when someone asks you to try playing with a pick....

#161
hernameisrio said:
Glenn, you are a breath of fresh air in this thread which has completely disintegrated, as it seems most of my threads tend to do around here. This is actually the BEST time to say it! :)

I really wish I could convince you guys that I'm not one of those people in real life who complains about everything...really! I'm not! I've just been through a lot and for better or worse, yes, it has affected how I choose to work with others. Maybe if I hadn't spent four years in crippling poverty due to trying to make a living in the music industry and losing out again and again because of the epidemic of unpaid internships around here...four years being dismissed and undermined constantly by people who think I'll just do whatever the heck they want because I'm too goddamn nice. Maybe if I had landed right in a band with well-adjusted people who take it seriously, instead of bouncing around many projects with all sorts of flawed character types...maybe if my life were different right now in general, I'd have a different perspective on the politics and ethics of being in a band. But because of the countless experiences I've had so far, I have no choice but to be a little skeptical and a little defensive.

Ultimately, I try very hard to keep my negative experiences from adversely affecting my performance or the connections I make with others. And I think THAT'S the attitude of a "real musician" or maybe just somebody who's human. I think we're really talking about two different things in this thread; I'm talking not about "my vision" as an "artist" (which is clearly beside the point anyway!) but about what it should mean to be in a band that is "for fun" (not profit). When you're NOT necessarily making money off a project and you're perhaps even SPENDING money to be in it, I think if anything, it becomes more critical to establish what's fair. It really should come down to compromise. That's all I'm saying. I never said, "Screw this guy, I'm not playing with a pick!" No, I said that I'm merely questioning if this is "normal" for him to do. Because I don't know. I wasn't questioning if I should disregard him or not. I was questioning if it was "okay" for him to ask it of me at a stage which is early in the game, when I don't know the band that well yet, and when I essentially don't really have enough information to really determine if there are ulterior motives here. It doesn't have a goddamn thing to do with whether I play with a pick or my fingers or anything else.
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I understand. Maybe that is why I am such 0 tolerance for B.S. kind of a guy.

In response to the concise question :" I was questioning if it was "okay" for him to ask it of me at a stage which is early in the game, when I don't know the band that well yet"

IMHO NO. It is NOT okay.

As I and others tried to say, IF you were being PAID, then that would be a different situation.
 
#162
Okay, so then where does this Michael dude come off telling me I'm not a "real musician" because how DARE I ask for PAY? Like...I can't win! I'm a hack if it's art for art's sake and I'm a greedy #$% if I ask for something that others have gotten (whether or not they play with a pick!). So which is it?! Because now I'm really confused!

And for the record, I am glad to be in this band. I think as it stands now, there IS a pretty decent chance that they'll "go somewhere" whether that means financially or in terms of having a good following, gigging/touring, and becoming a good experience for me as far as personal growth goes. So I told the guitarist I'd give the pick thing a shot and see what it brings to the songs...because he wasn't holding a gun to my head about it and because I recognize the importance of being flexible in situations like this.

So yeah. If anyone wants to call me "unprofessional" or a "hack," whatever, but I think it's just as bad to be judging other musicians for choices which might in fact be very personal.
 
#163
hernameisrio said:
Glenn, you are a breath of fresh air in this thread which has completely disintegrated, as it seems most of my threads tend to do around here. This is actually the BEST time to say it! :)

I really wish I could convince you guys that I'm not one of those people in real life who complains about everything...really! I'm not! I've just been through a lot and for better or worse, yes, it has affected how I choose to work with others. Maybe if I hadn't spent four years in crippling poverty due to trying to make a living in the music industry and losing out again and again because of the epidemic of unpaid internships around here...four years being dismissed and undermined constantly by people who think I'll just do whatever the heck they want because I'm too goddamn nice. Maybe if I had landed right in a band with well-adjusted people who take it seriously, instead of bouncing around many projects with all sorts of flawed character types...maybe if my life were different right now in general, I'd have a different perspective on the politics and ethics of being in a band. But because of the countless experiences I've had so far, I have no choice but to be a little skeptical and a little defensive.

Ultimately, I try very hard to keep my negative experiences from adversely affecting my performance or the connections I make with others. And I think THAT'S the attitude of a "real musician" or maybe just somebody who's human. I think we're really talking about two different things in this thread; I'm talking not about "my vision" as an "artist" (which is clearly beside the point anyway!) but about what it should mean to be in a band that is "for fun" (not profit). When you're NOT necessarily making money off a project and you're perhaps even SPENDING money to be in it, I think if anything, it becomes more critical to establish what's fair. It really should come down to compromise. That's all I'm saying. I never said, "Screw this guy, I'm not playing with a pick!" No, I said that I'm merely questioning if this is "normal" for him to do. Because I don't know. I wasn't questioning if I should disregard him or not. I was questioning if it was "okay" for him to ask it of me at a stage which is early in the game, when I don't know the band that well yet, and when I essentially don't really have enough information to really determine if there are ulterior motives here. It doesn't have a goddamn thing to do with whether I play with a pick or my fingers or anything else.
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There are some people out there who are more band-leadery than others. This may or may not be the case. The rest of the band may just happen to like the sound of a picked bass. Some do. The original bassist in Molly Hatchet once told me that their producer told him he wanted him to play with a pick when he was a fingers player. He wasn't trying to be a dictator...he just thought the sound of a picked bass worked better for them. Their first 3 albums that this guy produced did go platinum.

Personally, I just don't see the big deal. Doesn't make you less of a player, and you seem to like the band otherwise. No need to put yourself through this angst over it. Either do it or don't. The worst that happens if you don't is they find someone else or you quit. If you're that tortured over it, sounds like it might even be a relief to you.

But if you decide to do it, then do it without complaint.
 
#164
If the dude wrote the basslines and wants you to play what he wrote and you are olay with that, then why not play it exactly how he wants it played? Despite my handle, I'm not a fan of pick playing (primarily just not as fun for me) but i do love the sound of some basslines when played with a pick. It can make a difference and if the dude who wrote the lines thinks its important, personally I would try to play them how he wants it.
 
#165
I mean, I'll try the pick. I'm not opposed to trying new things. What I am opposed to is when people who aren't PAYING me to try new things, try to get me to try new things.
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This is what struck me, or maybe just the way it came over. You shouldn't need monetary incentives to try new things if it will actually make you better/more flexible as a bassist. But I realize you may not have meant it quite that way, and it is hard to read intent behind text because context is often lost. So I am saying nothing negative(and never did), just explaining how it struck me.

As to the rest, I remember past topics by you and the fact that you have been in several situations you were unhappy with, so it stands to reason you would want to make sure this won't turn into another one(or have been one right from the start).

So all I will say is if you have found this project a good one and can work within it, good luck! Make it happen.:)
 
#166
Use banjo picks?

Ha

But seriously,
I used to fight a lot about picks specifically, but lately I've come around. it's a cool useful sound of your fingers just cannot produce, and for a lot of Rock Styles it just so happens to sound a lot better. I mean objectively. Deal with it ;)
 
#167
I get the look like I'm a hack when I pull out my pick at try outs. Then I play and the doubt goes away fast.
Bottom line is you can't get the same tones as with a pick if the song calls for it use it. If you need mellow thump use your fingers.
It makes you a better bass player to be able to use both when necessary IMHO.
 
#169
hernameisrio said:
Story time. I started skateboarding when I was about 14. I got this crappy old skool 80's-style board at a yard sale for $10 and taught myself how to skate. I'd rolled around on my cousin's board at age 6, so somehow it was kinda engrained in my subconscious by that point. I kinda got into doing tricks and things like that with regular street-style boards, but it never quite clicked...I always felt limited. Then about five years ago, I got into longboarding and from that, ended up falling hard for a Dogtown cruiser board...you know, the short ones with the big wheels and narrow trucks. It cost almost $250 new, but it was exactly what I'd always wanted in a skateboard. I didn't care that I couldn't really do tricks on it, because I could carve like a longboard but still have the speed and agility of a shorter street-style board. So to me, it felt right. I'm not even necessarily a better skater, but I certainly enjoy it more.

So now whenever I mess around on a street-style board, it just feels really lame to me. The wheels feel too hard and too small and useless. The trucks feel limiting in their turning radius. The deck feels cheap. I can still ollie and kickflip, but when it comes to the type of skateboarding I enjoy, I go for the Dogtown board or my longboard every time. If that sort of skate culture had been around when I was a teenager in the mid-90's, I would've skipped the traditional setups and gone straight for the "boutique" boards, money be damned!
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Popsickles are for kids! I grew up skating in the Dogtown era if you can't tell by my screenname. All my tricks are over 30 years old but I still skate. I share your fondness for classic cruisers and longboards. I could never get used to the short wheel spacing and shape of popsickles. The little hard wheels may be great for modern street skating but this old dog don't do no rails and cruising on a new school setup is just a sketchy uncomfortable experience for me.

As to the pick thing I rarely use one but can and would if I was asked by the songwriter or BL if we are talking covers. I'm not as comfortable with a pick just like I'm not as comfortable riding a popsickle but you know what. Skating is FUN! Bass playing is FUN! If I'm with a group of people whose company I enjoy then I will ride that popsickle or pluck that plectrum all day long with a smile on my face. :)

So don't sweat the little stuff, and it's almost all little stuff we stress about in life if you really step back and look at it. Keep skating and keep playing bass and if it ceases to to be fun then try something else. Loose trucks and happy plucks to ya! :)

Oh my current #1 ride is a 42" Libtech with trackers and green kryptonics. Love this board so much I bought another one for backup.

lib_zpsa3f17af3.jpg
 
#170
Bert, that board looks awesome! And I'm glad you share my enthusiasm.

You're right man...it's so easy to lose sight of what we're really talking about here. I think sometimes I tend to take music so srsly, that I forget to just have fun with it. So thank for reminding me of that...because yeah, it IS fun!
 
#171
hernameisrio said:
Glenn, you are a breath of fresh air...
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Now I have heard it all. :D

Have you played with the band since you started playing with a pick? How was it?

You know what's going on more than anyone here, and all I can say is follow your gut instinct on whether or not to continue. You seem to be enjoying it, and that's good.

But I will add one thing, if this composer guy's next move is something like, "You really should get a Ric for the right sound," tell him to buy it and you'll try it. They call weed the gateway drug. Maybe picks are the gateway gear... Bottom line, watch your wallet.
 
#174
I think there's a serious subtext to this thread that needs to be discussed. It's not about picks VS fingers or whatever else. It's about our place in a band/ensemble or whatever else based on a variety of conditions. And that can vary wildly from project to project. So why don't we try to examine the varying conditions under which we get called on for our talents?

THE COLD CALL: This could be from a variety of sources: craigslist ads, open auditions, etc. It's a situation where we (bassists) get called in by someone who has material, and they need musicians to play that material in some context.

Is there pay? That can vary, too. But generally speaking, this is where a songwriter wants to flesh their material out. They may have a very specific vision, or a loose framework. This is where out listening capabilities come into play, along with an ability to interpret the writers intentions into an arranged song.

THE REFERRAL: This is where the band leader / songwriter has an idea of what you do before you get there based on a recommendation from someone they know. The referral may be based on a number of factors, but generally speaking, the person who has referred you has an idea of what you do and thinks that it will mesh with the vision of the band leader / songwriter.

The challenges for the bassist (or other instrumentalist) remain the same. Hopefully, things may be less of a stylistic stretch in this scenario since the referral may have linked up musicians of similar interests. But once again, you're almost certainly playing someone else's music.

COLLABORATING WITH FRIENDS/ACQUAINTANCES: This is where you're getting together with people on a more equal footing. Songwriting is a shared duty between several musicians, and there's likely to be a greater level of respect for one another based on a shared personal past / musical past. And very likely this is a setting where people may check their egos at the door.


So what's the common thread? Playing other people's music. When you are playing someone else's material, you are playing their game. And I see this a lot in New York. People may be making a lot of music contacts, but they seem to be playing things out the same way: trolling Craigslist for new gigs, rather than developing some personal relationships among a community of musicians that will eventually lead to some cool, organically developed music. Is it a symptom of the modern online age? Perhaps. And that may be why you've got so many songwriters out there who are fleshing out their visions in their bedrooms on garage band or pro tools before they ever get a band together.
 
#177
The thing that seems weird to me about the OP's situation is that I always thought you are hiring the person, not the technique. It's fine and dandy to suggest a way to play something, but there'd have to be a lot of cash involved for me to swallow my best judgement about how something should be played.
 
#179
skwee said:
The thing that seems weird to me about the OP's situation is that I always thought you are hiring the person, not the technique. It's fine and dandy to suggest a way to play something, but there'd have to be a lot of cash involved for me to swallow my best judgement about how something should be played.
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People I can find all day long. People who play what I want to hear...well the pool gets considerably smaller. However, I don't think there's a pool smaller than people who play what I want to hear and are willing to work for free ;)

So I'm kind of with you on that. But I'll tell you, it's never bothered me to be asked to do either one. I can do both about equally, and there are times I actually do it voluntarily. I've always looked at bands as compromises, no matter what they are, whether originals or covers. And suggestions and criticisms never bothered me too much when I realized that quite often, they were right.
 
#180
Not a problem for me - I get asked to slap or play with a pick every now and then but I just have to say that I don't know how to do that, I'm strictly a finger style player. You have to ask someone else if that is what you want.

Maybe I should learn, it's nice to have more tools in the toolbox, but I feel I need to use my little practice time on getting at least moderately good at one thing instead of spreading myself too thin on several different techniques.
 

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