When Your Wrists Let You Down

[sal4bass]

Well… I have my appointment with the occupational therapist tonight, so I’ll post on that experience when I have time, but I went to Guitar Center the other day in search of short scale basses, and basses with a easy-playing action.

I first picked up an “Ocean” bass, which is GCs proprietary house brand like Carlo Rebelli is to Sam Ash. Interesting basses with active electronics, but nothing that wowed me, IMO.

I then fairly by accident picked up a Peavey Cirrus BXP (or a BPX – I can’t remember), anyway this instrument was super playable. It played practically with me just looking at it. Active electronics, neck-through construction, string-through-body; and the quilted top make this axe look great. The frets were very low, and very little pressure was needed to fret a note. Sound-wise (and I realize I might get flamed here), it just didn’t have a fat full sound IMO that I prefer vs. a passive instrument. I was playing through an Ampeg 12” combo, with everything flat, which is how I like to A/B instruments. Now I certainly could get more bass by turning up the bass EQ on the instrument, or the amp, but with running everything flat it lacked a certain fullness and character of sound I prefer in a bass tone. But I liked it anyway, and almost bought it! $599.99 was the ticket price, but as you would expect, they only had the floor model in stock, and with the minor scratches and dings I’m sure I could have negotiated the price down considerably.

Next I asked to play a Fender Mustang. The salesperson handed me the bass and I plugged it into the same amp as I used with the Peavey. Now I’m thinking, ‘there’s no way this thing is going to have a good bottom end,’… boy was I wrong about that. The Mustang blew away the Peavey for a fat, full sound, and it was punchy too, probably because of the shorter strings. Wow, I couldn’t believe it! So I learned right then that if I went with the Mustang I would be happy with the sound. Playability-wise, the action was high and would need work, but I’m sure that shouldn’t be a problem with a good set-up.

I then moved on to a Gibson short scale. I don’t remember what it was actually, but it weighed a ton, wasn’t set up well, and was over a grand! I put it back on the rack without playing a note.

So I learned a few things. Peavey makes some beautiful basses, although I’m not sure the tone fits my taste (but maybe), and the Mustang could be a great instrument for me. As far as the Allen Woody goes, I’ll need to go to the specialty bass shop if I want to play one (although I gotta travel a bit to get there, however).

Interestingly, my salesperson at GC said that he suffered from tendonitis in the past. So I’m beginning to realize that more players probably have this issue at some point in their playing careers than we think.

Thanks to all for the continued support/ideas/suggestions on this thread. It’s been a big help.

Peace…

Salvatore ~

Hi Salvatore. Isn't checking out gear exciting and dangerous to one's wallet! I agree the Mustang has a very rich and full sound for such a small bass and pickup! Amazing really.

I own the American version of the Cirrus BXP. I agree with your assessment between the two sounds. The Fender Mustang has pronounced bass and fairly rolled off highs for a nice fat sound like a good P-Bass. The Cirrus has a more midrange rich (some say "modern") sound by comparison, though the EQ on the Cirrus can really shape the sound. Also the Cirrus has the "neck-through" tone quality that changes the harmonic overtones compared to bolt on necks IMO. I played a BXP Cirrus 4-string tonight at GC. This one had the Bubinga top and was beautiful to behold - a LOT of bass for the money. Remember the Cirrus line are 35-inch scale basses and may cause you more hand/wrist trouble due to slightly higher tension and reach required.

FWIW, I have been a multiple Peavey Bass owner for years. I started out with a foundation fretless, then got one of the Rudy Sarzo signature neck-throughs. I should NEVER have sold that bass. It was superb and a forerunner to the Cirrus line. All of my Peavey basses throughout the years have been great basses for their respective price points.

I went back to GC to try the Fender Mustang, Epiphone EB-0, and Gretsch Junior Jet Bass again. I must be loosing my mind because I love the feel and sound of the Gretsch the best. I know it is only a $250 bass but it has the hottest pickup of the group and really sounds sweet. More highs than the Mustang without giving up any of the bass response. But the overtones are different on it. The store clerk says it has hollow chambers under the solid top - so that might explain the unique sound it has. The Fender appears to have the best reconstruction quality to me, but at less than half the price, the little Gretsch is a contender IMO. The EB-0 "mudbucker" is just too muddy for my tastes, though it is a great looking bass to me.

I'm going to sleep on all this and still try to find an Allen Woody to try out before making a decision. I could really be very happy with either the Mustang or the Gretsch at this point.

 

[sal4bass]

hope the situation continues to improve for you. In my case, it was all about hand size I believe. My hands are ridiculously small and the stretches required to use a full size bass were just too much. Another advantage of this size regardless of whether you need it for wrist therapy is it will still play quicker than a long scale--just physics. I suppose that's unless you have large hands that would make the more narrow spacing of short-scales more clumsy.

I just bought my second Mustang reissue last week. A red one to go with the cream one I've had for a few years now. I love 'em both. The Mustangs are strung through the body and sound better than a whole bunch of different short-scales I've tried (such as an EBO, Gretch, Hamer, Beatle Basses, Essex).

Two others I have are a '71 Fender Musicmaster and a Squier Vista Musicmaster reissue. Both are good too. All are strung with TI Jazz flats. I'll probably try to sell one of the Musicmasters now.

""This particular Mustang was badly out of adjustment with very high action.""" Pretty easy to fix as long as the neck is good. Both of mine were easy to get low action. Highly recommend this guitar with TI jazz flats (the 32" versions). Talk about butter.

Thanks... I hope hope things keep improving as well - we'll see.

I actually have long fingers and a fairly large hand size, but the doctor told me I have very narrow wrists which constrict all the tendons and put pressure on the median nerve.

I love the feel of the short scale basses but I think that is really mostly related to the lower string tension. For instance tonight I played my Highway 1 Jazz which has DR Sunbeams on it (45-100) and it was quite comfortable. I also played my Cirrus which is strung with DR Hi-Beams (40-95) and that was also very comfortable on my wrist. But my Active Deluxe Jazz with Martin Nickels (40-95) was uncomfortable. The Martin Nickels have much higher string tension than the DRs do, and I think that is the thing that bothers my wrist the most.

I have a set of TI Jazz Rounds on the way for that bass so I am eager to see how they feel. Many people have commented on how they are very low tension strings. A short scale bass with low tension strings would probably be the best possible combination for my wrist.

I really appreciate your comments about your encounters with wrist/arm problems. This thread has become a wealth of information for those struggling with these issues.

 

[srptopdog]

Hi Salvatore. Isn't checking out gear exciting and dangerous to one's wallet! I agree the Mustang has a very rich and full sound for such a small bass and pickup! Amazing really.

I own the American version of the Cirrus BXP. I agree with your assessment between the two sounds. The Fender Mustang has pronounced bass and fairly rolled off highs for a nice fat sound like a good P-Bass. The Cirrus has a more midrange rich (some say "modern") sound by comparison, though the EQ on the Cirrus can really shape the sound. Also the Cirrus has the "neck-through" tone quality that changes the harmonic overtones compared to bolt on necks IMO. I played a BXP Cirrus 4-string tonight at GC. This one had the Bubinga top and was beautiful to behold - a LOT of bass for the money. Remember the Cirrus line are 35-inch scale basses and may cause you more hand/wrist trouble due to slightly higher tension and reach required.

FWIW, I have been a multiple Peavey Bass owner for years. I started out with a foundation fretless, then got one of the Rudy Sarzo signature neck-throughs. I should NEVER have sold that bass. It was superb and a forerunner to the Cirrus line. All of my Peavey basses throughout the years have been great basses for their respective price points.

I went back to GC to try the Fender Mustang, Epiphone EB-0, and Gretsch Junior Jet Bass again. I must be loosing my mind because I love the feel and sound of the Gretsch the best. I know it is only a $250 bass but it has the hottest pickup of the group and really sounds sweet. More highs than the Mustang without giving up any of the bass response. But the overtones are different on it. The store clerk says it has hollow chambers under the solid top - so that might explain the unique sound it has. The Fender appears to have the best reconstruction quality to me, but at less than half the price, the little Gretsch is a contender IMO. The EB-0 "mudbucker" is just too muddy for my tastes, though it is a great looking bass to me.

I'm going to sleep on all this and still try to fond an Allen Woody to try out before making a decision. I could really be very happy with either the Mustang or the Gretsch at this point.

Hi Sal ~

You’ve described the sound of the Peavey vs. the Mustang perfectly. Although the Cirrus is a 35” scale, it was super easy to play. I had a bass player friend with me the day I played the Cirrus. He’s a more seasoned player, and he was pulling all kinds of harmonics out of the Cirrus that sounded clear as a bell. Regarding the short scale search, I must have a look at that Gretch and the Woody, since I think I am going to go short scale fairly soon. Please keep us up to date regarding your search.

Salvatore ~

 

[rodl2005]

Sal, Sorry 'bout yr condition!!! Haven't had time to read ALL the replies to your OT. But(if no-one's suggested already) have U tried GLUCOSAMINE &/or Fish oil. Glucosamine takes about 2 weeks to start working after U start taking it-& take 2 or 3 x the rec.dose-See a naturapath or Doc. if U like - & helps "lubricate" joints It's helped me, Hope -if U haven'r tried already- it helps you!

 

[srptopdog]

Hello Everyone.

For those still interested, here is what I learned today during my visit to the therapist.

I brought in my bass and a pair of drum sticks and a drum pad. She was super excited that I brought instruments, saying it would help her determine how best to treat my tendinitis.

After much discussion she built me a brace. I should wear it when I sleep, and during the day whenever I think I may encounter discomfort (at work for example). I’m going to continue the Advil/Ibuprofen twice a day for two weeks. Apparently the Ibuprofen gradually builds up in your system. I should mention to please check with your doctor before taking that much ibuprofen, since it can damage certain internal organs depending on drugs you may be taking and/or certain medical condition you may have.

Regarding the splint, I do not have to wear it all of the time, since the muscles and tendons will atrophy if they are not used. She showed me some simple hand/wrist/arm exercises that I am to do only after I take off the splint. This slowly warms up the tendons after being stationary from wearing the splint.

I learned some important information today. Apparently there is some fluid that is in the tube the tendons travel through. One of the byproducts of tendinitis is that this fluid becomes sluggish, analogous to old oil in your car engine. When the fluid is sluggish it causes extra tension on the tendons, causing discomfort. Usually the tendons get minute tearing with from injury, and this of course contributes to the discomfort as well.

Tendons only make up about two percent of the human body; however, they require twenty percent of our blood supply to remain healthy. At the point of injury (the wrists in our case) it is naturally very difficult for blood to flow there ordinarily, and even more difficult when injury takes place.

Here’s the most important thing I learned. DO NOT USE ICE!! Although the natural tendency is to think that ice reduces swelling, which is true in many cases, ice CONSTRICTS the area of the injury and restricts blood flow. Good blood flow helps the injury heal. Remember the fluid I mentioned that gets sluggish? Think about starting a car engine in the dead of winter; extra friction and tension. What we should do is apply HEAT. Not a lot, but using a heating pad for example helps relax the entire area of injury, and promotes good blood flow. This allows for the tendons to stay loose, and helps keep everything running smooth.

To anyone reading this thread; try if at all possible to get medical advice before mixing a bunch of advice together. Although we are all well-meaning in our posts, I’m not sure combining various treatments is the best approach. If you can't afford to see a doctor, please do as much research as possible. Go slow. Be patient. I asked the doctor to write down some of the exact medical terms, and I will post them in this forum shortly.

My next appointment is Tuesday. I’ll report the results again in the forum. Oh yes… no bass for two weeks! But I can play drums and keys.

Blessings and Peace...

Salvatore ~

 

[srptopdog]

Sal, Sorry 'bout yr condition!!! Haven't had time to read ALL the replies to your OT. But(if no-one's suggested already) have U tried GLUCOSAMINE &/or Fish oil. Glucosamine takes about 2 weeks to start working after U start taking it-& take 2 or 3 x the rec.dose-See a naturapath or Doc. if U like - & helps "lubricate" joints It's helped me, Hope -if U haven'r tried already- it helps you!

I believe you have point about the "lubrication" aspect of Gloucosimine and fish oil. See my recent post regarding mt OT visit. I'll ask her about this treatment.

Thanks,

Salvatore ~

 

[GBGLJE]

I feel for you. Over the years I've had an index finger problem that would come and go. It would get to the point of making it impossible to play. I would notice it the day after I played for a long time.
I have switched to a different bass with a different neck profile and the problem is gone. I can now play non-stop for 6-8 hours with no pain.
I'm a relatively older guy 43 so I know that my body isn't gonna get better as I get older so I've been making a lot of YouTube Videos to look back on when my playing days are over.

Good luck with your situation.

 

[megadan]

I'm pretty scared for my wrists. Being a computer tech by day and a bassist AND drummer by night is killing them.
I try and take it easy, stretch a lot, take breaks, and I'm ambidextrous on the mouse. It still scares me though.
It seems like there are so many issues without a cure (wrists, ears)... what to do if you love to play but don't want to ruin your body?

 

[manmountain8]

I have a recurring ganglion cyst on my left wrist which is a buildup of synovial fluid (joint lubrication liquid). It leaks out and forms a pocket which creates a big lump. The lump puts pressure on my tendons and causes pain in my wrist. My wrist usually hurts wether the lump is there or not. I have learned to play less aggressively with my left hand. You don't have to hold the strings down as tight as you think. If I feel my wrist start to strain I backoff and straighten my wrist out as much as I can. Lower your elbow and push your arm forward to reduce strain on your wrist. You can also shorten your strap and bring the bass all the way up on your chest which means you have to bend your wrist less. If I can avoid playing near the first 3 frets that helps my wrist too. Try playing a bass with a shorter scale and thinner neck too. Repetitive fast bass lines can cause problems no matter what. The 2nd half of Black Magic Woman does it to me everytime. Tell your band about the issue and if you start having problems cut those songs from the list. Save the tough ones for the end of the night too. I also bring ice packs in a cooler with me and some marijuana which helps with the pain.

 

[manmountain8]

There maybe something to the no ice, use heat thing, but for me ice helps reduce the pain which helps me get through the show. Ibuprofen works well but I hate drugs and it make my stomach upset.

 

[sal4bass]

I feel for you. Over the years I've had an index finger problem that would come and go. It would get to the point of making it impossible to play. I would notice it the day after I played for a long time.
I have switched to a different bass with a different neck profile and the problem is gone. I can now play non-stop for 6-8 hours with no pain.
I'm a relatively older guy 43 so I know that my body isn't gonna get better as I get older so I've been making a lot of YouTube Videos to look back on when my playing days are over.

Good luck with your situation.

I hear you! I watched a video of a band I played in back in the late 1980s. There I am carefree as can be playing away. There is no way I could do a gig like that now. My wrist is OK for short durations of playing, but not 4 hours per night at this point.

In fact one thing that bothers my wrist more than excessive playing is carrying heavy equipment. My full rig is a 4x10 + 1x18 system and carting everything around really aggravates the wrist. Luckily when I play our church services, I just have to bring my bass and not my rig.

 

[sal4bass]

I'm pretty scared for my wrists. Being a computer tech by day and a bassist AND drummer by night is killing them.
I try and take it easy, stretch a lot, take breaks, and I'm ambidextrous on the mouse. It still scares me though.
It seems like there are so many issues without a cure (wrists, ears)... what to do if you love to play but don't want to ruin your body?

Sounds like you are taking proactive steps to avoid damage to the best of your ability.

Beyond that you really can't do too much once the problems have set in with a vengeance other than what Salvatore and I are doing to treat the symptoms reactively.

 

[sal4bass]

I have a recurring ganglion cyst on my left wrist which is a buildup of synovial fluid (joint lubrication liquid). It leaks out and forms a pocket which creates a big lump. The lump puts pressure on my tendons and causes pain in my wrist. My wrist usually hurts wether the lump is there or not. I have learned to play less aggressively with my left hand. You don't have to hold the strings down as tight as you think. If I feel my wrist start to strain I backoff and straighten my wrist out as much as I can. Lower your elbow and push your arm forward to reduce strain on your wrist. You can also shorten your strap and bring the bass all the way up on your chest which means you have to bend your wrist less. If I can avoid playing near the first 3 frets that helps my wrist too. Try playing a bass with a shorter scale and thinner neck too. Repetitive fast bass lines can cause problems no matter what. The 2nd half of Black Magic Woman does it to me everytime. Tell your band about the issue and if you start having problems cut those songs from the list. Save the tough ones for the end of the night too. I also bring ice packs in a cooler with me and some marijuana which helps with the pain.

A friend of mine had the same issue and had surgery to remove the cyst. Since then he can play (guitar) about as well as he could prior to the cyst developing.

 

[sal4bass]

Update: Today I purchased an Epiphone Allen Woody signature short scale. I found one earlier this week about 60 minutes from my house which I played and loved. VERY low action and had lighter gauge strings on it. It had been in a music store for some time and had some shop wear showing. But the dealer didn't have a case for it, so I didn't buy it.

By pure luck, an Epiphone dealer that reported not having one last week, told me one came in this morning (with case). This one is mint, but needs some setup work. After some negotiating over price, I bought it. I plan to put light gauge strings on it and lower the action. The neck profile is very comfortable, and I love the way the bass looks. I plan to install some brighter strings as it has accentuated lows with rolled off highs. It has a nice fat sound for sure. Paired with the right string this should make for a great bass that will be easy on my wrist. I'm thinking wither TIs or DR Hi-Beams would do nicely. Any other string thoughts?

 

[srptopdog]

Update: Today I purchased an Epiphone Allen Woody signature short scale. I found one earlier this week about 60 minutes from my house which I played and loved. VERY low action and had lighter gauge strings on it. It had been in a music store for some time and had some shop wear showing. But the dealer didn't have a case for it, so I didn't buy it.

By pure luck, an Epiphone dealer that reported not having one last week, told me one came in this morning (with case). This one is mint, but needs some setup work. After some negotiating over price, I bought it. I plan to put light gauge strings on it and lower the action. The neck profile is very comfortable, and I love the way the bass looks. I plan to install some brighter strings as it has accentuated lows with rolled off highs. It has a nice fat sound for sure. Paired with the right string this should make for a great bass that will be easy on my wrist. I'm thinking wither TIs or DR Hi-Beams would do nicely. Any other string thoughts?

Hey Sal ~

Congrats - the woody looks like a great decision. I'm about ready to pull the trigger on the gretch, and right now that's a better decision for me financially. Re: strings - I put a set of dr fat beams on my J. The sound is very good - fat, defined, and articulate, and the playability was improved. Not sure of the dif vs. the high beams though.

Salvatore ~

 

[sal4bass]

Hey Sal ~

Congrats - the woody looks like a great decision. I'm about ready to pull the trigger on the gretch, and right now that's a better decision for me financially. Re: strings - I put a set of dr fat beams on my J. The sound is very good - fat, defined, and articulate, and the playability was improved. Not sure of the dif vs. the high beams though.

Salvatore ~

Hi Salvatore. The Gretsch is a great short scale IMO - I think you will really like it. There is nothing I could find it's price range that could compare for my tastes. Gretsch did their homework on that pickup - that humbucker is a real beauty.

DR stings are real winners IMO. I have not use the Fat Beams, but have had great experiences with the Sunbeams and Hi-Beams in the past.

I put my first ever set of TI Jazz Rounds on my Fender Active Deluxe this morning. I love the feel and low tension! They have a very punchy/dynamic response. But they sound subdued compared the DRs I am used to. I am going to leave them on to see how they sound after breaking in fully. If nothing else they are easy on my wrist and fun to play. I see why so many people recommend them as a low tension string.

I may try a set of DRs on the short scale. I've got the action much better now and I can see the short scale becoming one of my main basses regardless of how my wrist feels. It is just a blast to play.

 

[srptopdog]

I have a recurring ganglion cyst on my left wrist which is a buildup of synovial fluid (joint lubrication liquid). It leaks out and forms a pocket which creates a big lump. The lump puts pressure on my tendons and causes pain in my wrist. My wrist usually hurts wether the lump is there or not. I have learned to play less aggressively with my left hand. You don't have to hold the strings down as tight as you think. If I feel my wrist start to strain I backoff and straighten my wrist out as much as I can. Lower your elbow and push your arm forward to reduce strain on your wrist. You can also shorten your strap and bring the bass all the way up on your chest which means you have to bend your wrist less. If I can avoid playing near the first 3 frets that helps my wrist too. Try playing a bass with a shorter scale and thinner neck too. Repetitive fast bass lines can cause problems no matter what. The 2nd half of Black Magic Woman does it to me everytime. Tell your band about the issue and if you start having problems cut those songs from the list. Save the tough ones for the end of the night too. I also bring ice packs in a cooler with me and some marijuana which helps with the pain.

You have some good ideas to combat this ailment, like avoiding the lower frets, strap position, short-scale, etc; although my herbal-remedy days are over.

I think you make a good point about talking to your band members, and trying to adjust your set list somewhat. If you're all buds then you should be willing to help each other out. I think there's enough material out there to develop a good set list of covers if that's your thing.

Yep - It's the synovial fluid that my therapist said needs to be keep flowing smooth, and the heat can promote this, whereas the ice can have the opposite effect. But I realize your situation is not identical to mine. Maybe try some sort of heat (my OT used Icy/Hot the other day we did exercises) and then do the stretching exercises you mentioned for bit prior to playing and see if that helps. Let us know if you try this and it helps any.

Salvatore ~

 

[srptopdog]

Hi Salvatore. The Gretsch is a great short scale IMO - I think you will really like it. There is nothing I could find it's price range that could compare for my tastes. Gretsch did their homework on that pickup - that humbucker is a real beauty.

DR stings are real winners IMO. I have not use the Fat Beams, but have had great experiences with the Sunbeams and Hi-Beams in the past.

I put my first ever set of TI Jazz Rounds on my Fender Active Deluxe this morning. I love the feel and low tension! They have a very punchy/dynamic response. But they sound subdued compared the DRs I am used to. I am going to leave them on to see how they sound after breaking in fully. If nothing else they are easy on my wrist and fun to play. I see why so many people recommend them as a low tension string.

I may try a set of DRs on the short scale. I've got the action much better now and I can see the short scale becoming one of my main basses regardless of how my wrist feels. It is just a blast to play.

I just bought the Gretch Jet.

I ordered it from musicians friend. I really don't like the idea of buying a guitar without playing it, as I think they are all somewhat unique to a degree, but I can always return it if it's not up to scratch. From reading all of the reviews, and your posts, it seems that these guitars are fairly consistent. Do you think I'll be OK once I do a set-up?

I hear TIs are the deal. Many players seem to like the jazz flats. I've never played flats. How do you think TI flats would work out on the Jet?

BTW - I had "visit 2" with the therapist. I've some more info to share! I'll post an update later tonight or tomorrow.

Salvatore ~

 

[srptopdog]

Sounds like you are taking proactive steps to avoid damage to the best of your ability.

Beyond that you really can't do too much once the problems have set in with a vengeance other than what Salvatore and I are doing to treat the symptoms reactively.

Yeah, that seems to be the case, you'll never really be completely home free, however I agree with Sal. I am currently going to therapy to treat my tendinitis, and I am trying to post as much information as possible regarding my progress. Many others on this forum are doing the same. Some posts have suggested other web sites that go into more technical depth about these afflictions and that offer some remedies. I think for all of us knowledge is power. Read all of the posts, there is definitely some good info here, and stay tuned as this thread develops.

I wonder if this thread should get a "sticky" at some point?

Salvatore ~

 

[Andrew Jones]

Hi


I'd like to poke my head in and mention something that has a dramatic effect for me.


Diet... Eat well...Don't underestimate this,


Stay away from Sugar and COFFEE!.


Take a really good ( which means the one that doesn't turn your pee too dark yellow) B complex and a Multi.



Aj