where are jazz basses in the mix?

[bon viesta]

i’ve heard a p bass in the mix hundreds and hundreds of times, and i could always identify where it was; nestled right in-between the bass drum and the snare drum. a nice cozy little spot. but when jazz basses come foward, you know the bass is there... but where is it? if the bass wasn’t there you would immediately know, but still i don’t know where it is.

 

[Bill Whitehurst]

It's still there, but spread out, not claiming just one spot.

 

[nabilhuakbar]

i’ve heard a p bass in the mix hundreds and hundreds of times, and i could always identify where it was; nestled right in-between the bass drum and the snare drum. a nice cozy little spot. but when jazz basses come foward, you know the bass is there... but where is it? if the bass wasn’t there you would immediately know, but still i don’t know where it is.

Anywhere from 50Hz-20kHz, but mostly within the 200Hz-1.5kHz range depending on the audio engineers and also whoever is mixing/mastering.

It's not a super straightforward thing, and it changes depending on what needs more emphasis in the song. The kick drum and most of the low end of the bass occupy a lot of the same sonic space, and in general you have to choose one over the other unless you're really got at surgically EQing stuff. Bass low end took more priority in classic rock, kick takes more priority in modern. The bass guitar has a lot of freqs to play with higher, and it's a big part of the reason why a lot of bassists in modern rock (especially) use a pick and dime their tone knobs. Low end is scarce so the mid range is where they live. That 500Hz-1.5kHz space is where a lot of the sonic action takes place nowadays.

It's also why scooping mids is a stupid idea in a busy mix. Those mids are where you get heard the best, and unless that bass is front and center it will get completely overshadowed by the drums and guitars.

 

[bon viesta]

and by the way, i’m talking more practical or ordinary bass songs. so like, elton john, early early 70s bootsy collins with james brown, joe osborn, some of the stuff he did with simon and garfunkel, and anything similar to those examples.

 

[bon viesta]

so basically, no rush, no crazy slap stuff and all of that, no jaco, etc.

 

[nabilhuakbar]

and by the way, i’m talking more practical or ordinary bass songs. so like, elton john, early early 70s bootsy collins with james brown, joe osborn, some of the stuff he did with simon and garfunkel, and anything similar to those examples basically, no rush, no crazy slap stuff and all of that, no jaco, etc.

This is gonna be VERY general, but the same principle still applies to all of that stuff...in general the bass in a typical rock band is gonna live (and be heard most) around 200Hz-1.5kHz. some of the EQ may different and the bass may be more forward or back in the mix, but all bass guitars tend to live in and get EQd the most in that general area. Honestly, I'm no tonal cork sniffer so to me P basses and Jazz basses sound really similar in a mix. Jazz basses are a little fuller, thicker, and darker than P basses when you're running both pickups, but I've been surprised plenty of times by Jazz basses that I thought were P basses.

Also...the sounds of those bands all varies greatly, and the way their basses are EQ'd and mixed varies between albums and between songs on those albums.

Something I learned from trying to (poorly) track and mix and master my own music is that what you might track down on tape is HIGHLY subject to modification and often will sound different from what you initially laid down so it better fits with the mix.

Same goes for live. You might think it should sound one way, but the audio engineer is in ultimately the one responsible for making everyone sound good together, and its a pretty crazy balancing act they have to play

 

[PJ Muzikmansky]

I always thought the jazz bass - when played fingerstyle at least - blended a bit better with the kick, especially with both pickups on full. More prominent on the front P/UP of course - more P bass like, and in a space all by itself with just the bridge, but the latter lacks bass and is better for staccato type playing with lots of 8th and 16th notes in a solo context, and not so much for music in which longer more sustained notes are required, e.g. for soul, blues or reggae. I also think a jazz played fingerstyle works a bit better on a straight up pop record...ABBA for example. Rutger Gunnarson's tone on "Dancing Queen" and "Knowing me, knowing you" sits with the kick perfectly.

Abba - Dancing Queen - YouTube

Abba - Knowing Me, Knowing You (Official Video) - YouTube

 

[PJ Muzikmansky]

To further illustrate my point, here's an example. Demo using a jazz bass. Both pickups on full. Flat wound strings. The bass line was laid down in one take to a vocal track only... while I tapped my foot. The guitar and drums were added later.

The jazz bass blends very well with the kick IMO.

 

[B-Mac]

i’ve heard a p bass in the mix hundreds and hundreds of times, and i could always identify where it was; nestled right in-between the bass drum and the snare drum. a nice cozy little spot. but when jazz basses come foward, you know the bass is there... but where is it? if the bass wasn’t there you would immediately know, but still i don’t know where it is.

Listen to Rush on Moving Pictures.
This is when GL switched to a Jazz from his Ric.
I believe, maybe wrongly, that 'Red Barchetta' is the only track with the Ric and everything else is the Jazz.
On albums after this he used Wal and Steinberger, but starting on Counterparts he used the Jazz exclusively on albums.
Others here, more expert on Rush than I, would have more details.
You feel the bass. Others have explained it in sound frequency as in low Hz, but you also hear bass in midrange and depending on strings and pups even in treble. Just listen to a Ric with Rotosound swing 66 strings.
Rush without a Bass would be even more noticeable as being absent as the Bass is not only rhythmic, but also melodic.
Listen to music on a good sound system rather than earbuds and you'll know where the bass is.

For a P bass example, listen to Kansas' first 5 albums. Dave Hope plays a Precision with a pic and you can hear and feel the bass. For the longest time I thought he played a Jazz, but his pic playing style and EQ really come through.

Using round wound or flat wound strings really makes a difference too.
Roto swing 66 strings really ring out from bass to treble.

 

[bon viesta]

Listen to Rush on Moving Pictures.
This is when GL switched to a Jazz from his Ric.
I believe, maybe wrongly, that 'Red Barchetta' is the only track with the Ric and everything else is the Jazz.
On albums after this he used Wal and Steinberger, but starting on Counterparts he used the Jazz exclusively on albums.
Others here, more expert on Rush than I, would have more details.

growling round wound jazz basses sit differently in the mix than average or more traditional flat wound “bass bass” type of jazzes, which is what i’m trying to specifically hear. i can spot those growl-fests anywhere in the mix. though listening to the jazz bass geddy tracks again, they feel much deeper than a p bass or similar would be.

 

[B-Mac]

growling round wound jazz basses sit differently in the mix than average or more traditional flat wound “bass bass” type of jazzes, which is what i’m trying to specifically hear. i can spot those growl-fests anywhere in the mix. though listening to the jazz bass geddy tracks again, they feel much deeper than a p bass or similar would be.

See my last minute edit....

 

[bon viesta]

See my last minute edit....

hmm... judging by your posts and what i’m hearing as i’m listening to moving pictures (great album ), it seems jazz basses seem to be a more “feel rather than hear” type bass. you don’t ‘hear‘ them in the mix, you FEEL them. they usually stay hidden, but it’s only because they do their job. when they’re gone everything will feel all wrong.

 

[80jazz]

Listen to Rush on Moving Pictures.
This is when GL switched to a Jazz from his Ric.
I believe, maybe wrongly, that 'Red Barchetta' is the only track with the Ric and everything else is the Jazz.
On albums after this he used Wal and Steinberger, but starting on Counterparts he used the Jazz exclusively on albums.
Others here, more expert on Rush than I, would have more details.

I think The Camera Eye was also the Ric and that the '72 Jazz first showed up on Permanent Waves.

 

[el jeffe bass]

Go through Joe Osborne’s discography and pick out a few of the hits that he played on. Give those songs a listen using good headphones or speakers. He used a Fender Jazz for most of his career, old flats and a pick. That’s a great example of how a Jazz bass sits in a mix.

 

[B-Mac]

hmm... judging by your posts and what i’m hearing as i’m listening to moving pictures (great album ), it seems jazz basses seem to be a more “feel rather than hear” type bass. you don’t ‘hear‘ them in the mix, you FEEL them. they usually stay hidden, but it’s only because they do their job. when they’re gone everything will feel all wrong.

You definitely hear and feel the Jazz on Tom Sawyer and YYZ

 

[NoiseNinja]

This is gonna be VERY general, but the same principle still applies to all of that stuff...in general the bass in a typical rock band is gonna live (and be heard most) around 200Hz-1.5kHz. some of the EQ may different and the bass may be more forward or back in the mix, but all bass guitars tend to live in and get EQd the most in that general area. Honestly, I'm no tonal cork sniffer so to me P basses and Jazz basses sound really similar in a mix. Jazz basses are a little fuller, thicker, and darker than P basses when you're running both pickups, but I've been surprised plenty of times by Jazz basses that I thought were P basses.

Also...the sounds of those bands all varies greatly, and the way their basses are EQ'd and mixed varies between albums and between songs on those albums.

Something I learned from trying to (poorly) track and mix and master my own music is that what you might track down on tape is HIGHLY subject to modification and often will sound different from what you initially laid down so it better fits with the mix.

Same goes for live. You might think it should sound one way, but the audio engineer is in ultimately the one responsible for making everyone sound good together, and its a pretty crazy balancing act they have to play

As far as I am concerned, both in recording and live situations, unless the whole purpose of the music is to manipulate the raw signal of course, that a good musician/sound engineer´, that know what they are doing, will aim to get the raw signal to the mixing console/recording as close to the intended final product as possible, hence not needing to change the tone of the different instruments drastically post production/before going through the PA.

Another perfectly valid approach though is to get a signal as naked and "raw" as possible, so to speak capturing the instruments as "al natural" as possible, so they can be manipulated at a later stage in almost whatever direction one would wish.

Which approach of those two above mentioned to chose would depend entirely of the nature of the music and what it is you are trying to achieve, sometimes in certain contexts one of them will give a better result than the other.

 

[Funk With Me]

A favorite Jazz Bass example of mine is Billy Cox on the Jimi Hendrix Cry of Love album.

 

[Chrisk-K]

I think The Camera Eye was also the Ric and that the '72 Jazz first showed up on Permanent Waves.

Geddy said the J was first used on Tom Sawyer.

 

[FrenchBassQC]

In this case it is right there...

 

[bon viesta]

i’m currently listening to billy cox live with jimi in 1970, and i just went on another thread that confirms my theory: j basses are DEEPER than p basses. even though they’re the same notes, the fundamental is there and it’s right up in your face. or... technically not. what makes a jazz bass more hard to hear is the fact that since it doesn’t have as much fluff/‘fuzz’ as a p bass, it sounds more lonely in the low register. but because it’s so low and deep you end up really feeling it.