where are jazz basses in the mix?

[Cave Puppy]

Plus one for Joe Osborn. The classic Jazz bass player. EVERY one of the songs on which he played he was using his trusty ole Jazz with a pick (as mentioned earlier) and would only change strings when they broke. John Paul Jones was another Jazz bass player early on. Let's also don't forget Larry Graham. He had that beautiful jazz with matching headstock in the Sly days and had Moon (?) basses create his signature Jazz.

 

[nabilhuakbar]

It would seem to me that the entire 'basses' section of the Talk Bass forum would at least contradict this by some degree..... Just sayin'

I think everyone should spend some time trying to EQ their own bass tracks against a full array of other instruments in a proper mix. You learn a lot about how little your bedroom sound matters.

Certain basses definitely provide different tonal foundations - and you want a good instrument that provides a good core tone - but there are a million and one ways to change how they sound.

 

[funkinbottom]

but still i don’t know where it is

It will be where you put it, or should be anyway. That's why we have volume/e.q. knobs on amps and instruments.

If a competent bass player plays a Jazz bass in a group of other competent players that all listen to each other, he is going to sit in a mix better than a not-as-competent player, with inconsistent delivery, playing a P-bass with a bunch of guys who all think they should be the hottest signal in a mix

Well stated, I definitely agree. The whole "sits in the mix" thing is A: Subjective B: Can apply to any bass (or instrument)

All basses sound a little different, or similar for discussion sake. 3 different P basses can sound uniquely different, or surprisingly similar depending on many variables. as can a jazz, or any bass for that matter. Active, passive, flats, rounds, pick ups, fingers, slap, pick. Tons of variables. As far as sitting in a mix, in a recording, depends a lot on how good you or your engineer is. You can get a great hot signal in only to be ruined by a horrible mix.

 

[jamro217]

It's not so much the fault of the Jazz Bass being unable to fulfill the traditional bass role as it is sound engineers and producers who cater to the modern hi fi Marcus Miller sound. The '70's spacing and redesigned pickups back then did change the sound of Js, but it was the culture that transformed what was to be considered the normal bass tone. Before disco the P with flats was the standard (which the J could convincingly achieve), after that it was a bright, in your face J with steel rounds. Ps can't really do that the same way. A perfect example of this is by comparing the CTI jazz recordings from the '70's. In the early years it was dominated by Gary King and his Guild Starfire, by the end of the decade it was Neil Jason, Marcus Miller, and Nathan East, all of the latter with the bright J tone. This isn't even mentioning Larry Graham. It is the musical culture and norms, not the instrument itself.

 

[nabilhuakbar]

It will be where you put it, or should be anyway.

Also something we haven't talked about that's almost probably more EQ is where you're panned in the mix, and how everything else is spread out. If your engineers are douches or incompetent and they don't pan guitars out to the sides, everything gets a lot more jumbled together.

 

[EatS1stBassist]

i’ve heard a p bass in the mix hundreds and hundreds of times, and i could always identify where it was; nestled right in-between the bass drum and the snare drum. a nice cozy little spot. but when jazz basses come foward, you know the bass is there... but where is it? if the bass wasn’t there you would immediately know, but still i don’t know where it is.

Exactly!

 

[cnltb]

i’ve heard a p bass in the mix hundreds and hundreds of times, and i could always identify where it was; nestled right in-between the bass drum and the snare drum. a nice cozy little spot. but when jazz basses come foward, you know the bass is there... but where is it? if the bass wasn’t there you would immediately know, but still i don’t know where it is.

All depends on the mix and on how good the coffee was, you brought along for the engineer.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

and by the way, i’m talking more practical or ordinary bass songs. so like, elton john, early early 70s bootsy collins with james brown, joe osborn, some of the stuff he did with simon and garfunkel, and anything similar to those examples.

From what I understand Dee Murray ( Elton John) played a Jazz, but for all I know he could have played a lot of different Basses depending on the song. Noel Redding (Hendrix) played a Jazz as well.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

i’m currently listening to billy cox live with jimi in 1970, and i just went on another thread that confirms my theory: j basses are DEEPER than p basses. even though they’re the same notes, the fundamental is there and it’s right up in your face. or... technically not. what makes a jazz bass more hard to hear is the fact that since it doesn’t have as much fluff/‘fuzz’ as a p bass, it sounds more lonely in the low register. but because it’s so low and deep you end up really feeling it.

I think the sound engineer has more to do with how the bass sit in a mix more so than the bass itself. I’ve played PBs for almost 40 years or better. I also have a Warwick (active, but alway set to flat) and a Jazz Bass. I can honestly say, you can get as deep as you can stand with either. You can also eliminate the roundwound growl with EQ as well.

Personally, I like recording with fender basses with volume and tone control wide open and direct to the console with no effects. This give the engineer a full tonal palette to work with. The Warwick set to flat.

Just a tip. If a bass has it’s low mid scooped to make the low frequencies more noticeable, the more you scoop, the more difficult it will be to hear in the mix. And I can assure you a Jazz can have as much fluff/fuzz as a PB if that’s you want.

I’ll agree there is a difference between the voice of a PB and a Jazz, but depending on the EQ, there really is a lot more commonality than difference in the hands of a skilled engineer.

 

[bon viesta]

i’m listening to ol grand funk and man that bass is LOOOOOW. it feels appropriate that a jazz bass was the bass that ended up with the title “bass of doom”, though maybe jaco’s playing sound doesn’t resemble much “doom” as compared to his late 60s and early 70s contemporaries.

 

[nabilhuakbar]

I think the sound engineer has more to do with how the bass sit in a mix more so than the bass itself. I’ve played PBs for almost 40 years or better. I also have a Warwick (active, but alway set to flat) and a Jazz Bass. I can honestly say, you can get as deep as you can stand with either. You can also eliminate the roundwound growl with EQ as well.

Personally, I like recording with fender basses with volume and tone control wide open and direct to the console with no effects. This give the engineer a full tonal palette to work with. The Warwick set to flat.

Just a tip. If a bass has it’s low mid scooped to make the low frequencies more noticeable, the more you scoop, the more difficult it will be to hear in the mix. And I can assure you a Jazz can have as much fluff/fuzz as a PB if that’s you want.

I’ll agree there is a difference between the voice of a PB and a Jazz, but depending on the EQ, there really is a lot more commonality than difference in the hands of a skilled engineer.

^^^^^

This all day err'day

 

[SteveCS]

I'm at a bit of a loss how to consolidate these two quotes...

...joe osborn,...

... jazz basses seem to be a more “feel rather than hear” type bass. you don’t ‘hear‘ them in the mix, you FEEL them. they usually stay hidden
...

Joe was anything but hidden.

 

[bon viesta]

I'm at a bit of a loss how to consolidate these two quotes...





Joe was anything but hidden.

maybe i was being a little hyperbolic i meant to say that they’re more hidden than p basses. they’re felt or “sensed” rather than heard as a separate sound like a p bass usually is.

 

[Slade N]

it also depends on what’s going on with the mix eq wise, with the other instruments tone wise, and the song arrangement wise. Different basses will sit differently based on these variables

 

[red_rhino]

and by the way, i’m talking more practical or ordinary bass songs. so like, elton john

You do realize that Dee Murray played a jazz bass, right? I mean, he played other basses too (I've seen pics of him playing a P and a G&L), but I'm pretty confident that he's playing a jazz on Love Lies Bleeding.

 

[Raw N Low]

I think a Jazz bass in a three-piece is downright deadly and articulate. It compliments the bottom and high end with a little more detail. P basses seem to have more bounce in a mix and can retain their musicality when more is piled on.

To my ears, most 70's style J's have more snap, whilst most P's retain a little bottom end bleed. It's not a bad thing. Just pick the right tool for the job.

 

[Mannyinnewyork]

Here’s my Jbass in one of my cheesy home recordings. I like the way it sits in the mix (like it more than my playing).

both pups dimed and tone control at about 1/4 up. The bass sounds better than I am, but it works for me.

 

[fishdreams]

Everwhere you want it to be - front, center, back
Its the whole point of a jazz bass and why it is so super versatile, imo

 

[bon viesta]

You do realize that Dee Murray played a jazz bass, right? I mean, he played other basses too (I've seen pics of him playing a P and a G&L), but I'm pretty confident that he's playing a jazz on Love Lies Bleeding.

of course! that’s why i said dee murray. he’s an example of a jazz bass in a mix.

 

[red_rhino]

of course! that’s why i said dee murray. he’s an example of a jazz bass in a mix.

Ah! Sorry, I misunderstood your point. In fact, I think I misunderstood the premise of your post. (Too many P v J threads.)

I do tend to treat P's & J's differently when I play them, especially in the context in which I play them (live vs solo). Dee Murray's tone was amazing no matter what bass he was playing, but when I'm after an in-your-face gnarly gut-punch jazz bass tone, his tone on Love Lies Bleeding is what I'm after.