Where can I find the best conversations about class D amps?

[6-3-2]

I thought this was about a Bugatti Veyron and was REALLY trying to figure out how a super car is related to class D amps

 

[pfschim]

Ive played through most of these, and I wonder (but am too lazy to do the research) if these are all using the same power module manufacturer. That would put all the tonal aspects squarely on the preamp sections.

not too sure about that. I've read enough @agedhorse posts on amps and amp designer approaches to recall that even if the same class D power module is involved with all of the listed amps, that the designers have the option to tweak how the power section behaves .... so they would NOT operate or sound exactly alike, and would not just rely on the preamp for tone/sound definition.

perhaps I'm wrong, but I believe I've heard this stated before.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

I own a Bugera Veyron T and I want to hear from Class D owners who have owned a Veyron and have played through this list of class D's-

Mesa Subway D-800 or 800+
Magellan 800
GK 800 Fusion
Forte D
Aguilar Tone Hammer- 500 or 700

I've known that the Veyron is not that well supported, company wise. It's been labeled a throw away when broken. I've tried reaching out to Bugera and you have to jump though hoops.

I'm wondering what I'm missing compared or if I'm not missing out. I had a Forte, with the Drive not compression, but sold it in favor of the Veyron. I felt it was warmer maybe due to the tubes internally.

Please tell me what you like about yours compared if you have played through the Bugera.

Thanks!

The Veyron M sounds better, and is more reliable. I've had both.

But, most amp companies just have a cleaner power section.

The power units in the bugeras are cheap. They distort at lower volumes, and are noisy.

The amps, as a whole, sound great. There's nothing wrong in that department. But, the amps aren't clean or reliable.

 

[LiptonJigglers]

not too sure about that. I've read enough @agedhorse posts on amps and amp designer approaches to recall that even if the same class D power module is involved with all of the listed amps, that the designers have the option to tweak how the power section behaves .... so they would NOT operate or sound exactly alike, and would not just rely on the preamp for tone/sound definition.

perhaps I'm wrong, but I believe I've heard this stated before.

So what you're saying is that the power module can and does have an effect on tonal abilities once the manufacturer has "tweak(ed) how the power section behaves" ?

Does this not fly in the face of many "experts" like aged horse (who liked, thus, im assuming, agrees with your statement) who continue to claim that power modules, in particular, Class D, do not have any direct effect, relationship to tonal shaping abilities?

If not, what is it you are claiming?

 

[Barticus]

I've never played through the Bugera but do own the TH500, TH700, D800+ and the TT800… ALL great amps depending on the tone you're looking for.

Best advice for any of these is to dig into the manual (10min) to understand the controls/settings for your particular amp. Once you understand how the amp is designed you can better tweak the controls to determine if it can perform to your needs. I've learned that the Aguilar's (AG & TH) and Mesa's (D+ & TT) are all different animals and until you understand the manual you may not be getting what you want from any of them. Once you do, they can all be magical.

Mesa Subway D-800 or 800+
Magellan 800
GK 800 Fusion
Forte D
Aguilar Tone Hammer- 500 or 700

 

[agedhorse]

So what you're saying is that the power module can and does have an effect on tonal abilities once the manufacturer has fiddled with it?

Does this not fly in the face of many "experts" like aged horse (who liked, thus, im assuming, agrees with your statement) who continue to claim that power modules, in particular, Class D, do not have any direct effect, relationship to tonal shaping abilities?

The power amp itself has little impact on tone or feel, but the additional circuitry that governs the behavior of the power amp and signal through the power amp most certainly can. Also, manufacturers can't "fiddle" with things, because any changes to the module must not compromise the safety and EMC certifications of the power supply. This is why the more accomplished, more experienced designers can achieve greater performance while simultaneously achieving higher reliability.

 

[D.A.R.K.]

So, I would imagine those tweaks to what is fed to the power amp are things like high pass or low pass filtering, limiting threshold (all non accessible build features), stuff of that nature. Makes sense.

 

[agedhorse]

So, I would imagine those tweaks to what is fed to the power amp are things like high pass or low pass filtering, limiting threshold (all non accessible build features), stuff of that nature. Makes sense.

In some cases other things as well.

 

[bassinflorida]

A major difference in the ones you listed as options when compared to the Bugera is likely reliabililty. Plus they all can be adjusted to sound nice and loud.

 

[Pbman]

I'm not sure I understand the issue. The input pad sounds like it's doing what it's designed to... your bass is clipping the input, so you engage the input pad to lower the input level (and thus increase the usable range of gain). Why do you not want to use the input pad?

All great responses. So I gather the main down point to the Bugera is reliability. Their customer service suffers, too.

Here was my goal- Buying a Class D with a tube pre-amp. I'm a tube guy so I wanted a tube front end. The first class D I ever played though was a GK MB 500 and it kicked butt. The amp was going through 2 - Bergantino single 12' and it totally filled the room. Then I was thinking maybe get the Fusion 800 because it had 12ax7's in it. Then I came across the Bugera at Music Go Round store. I took it home and it stayed. The issue that I don't like is the setup overload. Maybe I'm over thinking it because the pad seems to be needed 80% of the time even with passive basses. I feel the input is too sensitive. I liked the Forte setup in that you dial in the overload and you can back it off. But in comparison the Veyron sounded warmer according myself and 3-4 other players. The Forte is very highly rated.
All I was ever looking for is what am I missing compared to the others out there. Recently, at a jam, I played through an Elf and it was impressive.

I appreciate all your thoughts

 

[Rip Van Dan]

I own a Bugera Veyron T and I want to hear from Class D owners who have owned a Veyron and have played through this list of class D's-

Mesa Subway D-800 or 800+
Magellan 800
GK 800 Fusion
Forte D
Aguilar Tone Hammer- 500 or 700

I've known that the Veyron is not that well supported, company wise. It's been labeled a throw away when broken. I've tried reaching out to Bugera and you have to jump though hoops.

I'm wondering what I'm missing compared or if I'm not missing out. I had a Forte, with the Drive not compression, but sold it in favor of the Veyron. I felt it was warmer maybe due to the tubes internally.

Please tell me what you like about yours compared if you have played through the Bugera.

Thanks!

I have a DNA-800 that I purchased as a DNA Endorsing Artist back in 2021. 400-watts into 8Ω and 800-watts into either 4Ω or 2Ω. It also has a built-in compressor with adjustable threshold and ratio (superb compressor). It is a dead quiet amp because it uses passive cooling instead of a fan. The EQ is simple with Bass shelved at 35Hz, low mids centered at 500Hz, high mids centered at 2KHz, and treble shelved for everything above 2KHz. Not as versatile as the Eden amps that David designed with 3 semi-parametrics but easy to use and easy to dial in a good sound. Shape control is far more gradual and adjusts over a wider range than his Eden amps did. All this and it weighs just 4.8-lbs.

Unfortunately I believe I got one of the last ones made. When I ordered it in April 2021 there were none left at his factory because he was waiting on parts (Covid supply chain strikes again). David said he had enough parts on hand to build me one if I could wait for 2 or 3 weeks to get it. So he made one for me and one for another endorser. However the parts the factory needed never came in. Some of the parts were proprietary, made by a small company and evidently only used in David's DNA-800 and DNA-1350 amps.

Earlier this year David announced he was shuttering the doors of DNA because he couldn't get the parts needed to manufacture his amps. There is still some DNA gear out there at some of his dealers with "last one" signs on them, but the used market has almost disappeared entirely as folks snatched them up. Looks like there is a used DNS-210 cab and a new stack of the DNA-800 + two DNS-112 cabs not surprisingly marked "Last One". Still, you might get lucky somewhere and find one.

I also have a low-powered Eden class D amp that I bought specifically to play a small brew pub where we hosted open-mic nights on most Friday nights (about 40 times a year). I was really pleased with the sound I got out of it and really disappointed that I hadn't bought the 500-watt version instead. EQ on it is bass shelving at 30Hz and Treble shelving for everything about 2KHz. There are semi-parametrics marked low-mids and Hi-mids and you can adjust any frequency from 30Hz up to 2KHz with them. Two things surprised me about this amp. One is that it had the same warmth of sound that my big Eden class A/B amp gets from a tube in the preamp, even though the TN-226 (class D) doesn't have any tubes.. It uses a golden ear chip (THAT-4301) that among other things emulates tube warmth.

The other thing that amazed me was the auto compressor it has. The one on my big Eden amp is pretty harsh. Works great for slap but doesn't sound very good on anything else. Had a night at that brew pub where our 5-pc group got too loud and the clip light on my amp started flashing. Tried a couple of adjustments that didn't work and then engaged the compressor and turned up the gain, which becomes a threshold control when the compressor is engaged. Suddenly the clip light stopped flashing, I didn't have to turn down at all, and it sounded really good, not harsh at all. I was really impressed with this auto-compressor. I did finally convince the group we were too loud and with guilty looks on their faces, everyone backed off and we got back to reasonable levels.

The 500-watt version of the Eden Class D amp (TN-501) has a street price of ~$649...if you can find one. Gear4Music.com bought Eden from Marshall a while back with the proviso that Marshall will continue to do the manufacturing. Evidently that is not a priority for Marshall as most of their gear is not available right now.

Of the brands you mention, I'd take a close look at what Mesa has to offer. Mesa has 4 different 800-watt class D amps to choose from and they are significantly different from one another. @agedhorse is the designer of Mesa's Subway line and is an active member of TB. He can tell you the differences between them if you have questions after reading the descriptions on the Mesa website. He is quite helpful with questions not only about his own gear but about how bass gear generally works (he's repaired all kinds). There's also a Mesa-owner's club on TB that will be happy to comment about Mesa gear.

Good luck!

 

[Pbman]

I have a DNA-800 that I purchased as a DNA Endorsing Artist back in 2021. 400-watts into 8Ω and 800-watts into either 4Ω or 2Ω. It also has a built-in compressor with adjustable threshold and ratio (superb compressor). It is a dead quiet amp because it uses passive cooling instead of a fan. The EQ is simple with Bass shelved at 35Hz, low mids centered at 500Hz, high mids centered at 2KHz, and treble shelved for everything above 2KHz. Not as versatile as the Eden amps that David designed with 3 semi-parametrics but easy to use and easy to dial in a good sound. Shape control is far more gradual and adjusts over a wider range than his Eden amps did. All this and it weighs just 4.8-lbs.

Unfortunately I believe I got one of the last ones made. When I ordered it in April 2021 there were none left at his factory because he was waiting on parts (Covid supply chain strikes again). David said he had enough parts on hand to build me one if I could wait for 2 or 3 weeks to get it. So he made one for me and one for another endorser. However the parts the factory needed never came in. Some of the parts were proprietary, made by a small company and evidently only used in David's DNA-800 and DNA-1350 amps.

Earlier this year David announced he was shuttering the doors of DNA because he couldn't get the parts needed to manufacture his amps. There is still some DNA gear out there at some of his dealers with "last one" signs on them, but the used market has almost disappeared entirely as folks snatched them up. Looks like there is a used DNS-210 cab and a new stack of the DNA-800 + two DNS-112 cabs not surprisingly marked "Last One". Still, you might get lucky somewhere and find one.

I also have a low-powered Eden class D amp that I bought specifically to play a small brew pub where we hosted open-mic nights on most Friday nights (about 40 times a year). I was really pleased with the sound I got out of it and really disappointed that I hadn't bought the 500-watt version instead. EQ on it is bass shelving at 30Hz and Treble shelving for everything about 2KHz. There are semi-parametrics marked low-mids and Hi-mids and you can adjust any frequency from 30Hz up to 2KHz with them. Two things surprised me about this amp. One is that it had the same warmth of sound that my big Eden class A/B amp gets from a tube in the preamp, even though the TN-226 (class D) doesn't have any tubes.. It uses a golden ear chip (THAT-4301) that among other things emulates tube warmth.

The other thing that amazed me was the auto compressor it has. The one on my big Eden amp is pretty harsh. Works great for slap but doesn't sound very good on anything else. Had a night at that brew pub where our 5-pc group got too loud and the clip light on my amp started flashing. Tried a couple of adjustments that didn't work and then engaged the compressor and turned up the gain, which becomes a threshold control when the compressor is engaged. Suddenly the clip light stopped flashing, I didn't have to turn down at all, and it sounded really good, not harsh at all. I was really impressed with this auto-compressor. I did finally convince the group we were too loud and with guilty looks on their faces, everyone backed off and we got back to reasonable levels.

The 500-watt version of the Eden Class D amp (TN-501) has a street price of ~$649...if you can find one. Gear4Music.com bought Eden from Marshall a while back with the proviso that Marshall will continue to do the manufacturing. Evidently that is not a priority for Marshall as most of their gear is not available right now.

Of the brands you mention, I'd take a close look at what Mesa has to offer. Mesa has 4 different 800-watt class D amps to choose from and they are significantly different from one another. @agedhorse is the designer of Mesa's Subway line and is an active member of TB. He can tell you the differences between them if you have questions after reading the descriptions on the Mesa website. He is quite helpful with questions not only about his own gear but about how bass gear generally works (he's repaired all kinds). There's also a Mesa-owner's club on TB that will be happy to comment about Mesa gear.

Good luck!

Wow, great write up!

Bass Central has a DNA 800 for sale. I'll take a deeper look at the Mesa series, Thanks!

 

[pepj]

Played the GK, Berg ForteHP and Aguilar TH.
Not sure of the exact GK model and didn't really get a lot of time on it, but owned and sold on the other 2 quite quickly.
I'd have to have a tube or 3 in the pre amp stage.

 

[paskisti]

All great responses. So I gather the main down point to the Bugera is reliability. Their customer service suffers, too.

Here was my goal- Buying a Class D with a tube pre-amp. I'm a tube guy so I wanted a tube front end. The first class D I ever played though was a GK MB 500 and it kicked butt. The amp was going through 2 - Bergantino single 12' and it totally filled the room. Then I was thinking maybe get the Fusion 800 because it had 12ax7's in it. Then I came across the Bugera at Music Go Round store. I took it home and it stayed. The issue that I don't like is the setup overload. Maybe I'm over thinking it because the pad seems to be needed 80% of the time even with passive basses. I feel the input is too sensitive. I liked the Forte setup in that you dial in the overload and you can back it off. But in comparison the Veyron sounded warmer according myself and 3-4 other players. The Forte is very highly rated.
All I was ever looking for is what am I missing compared to the others out there. Recently, at a jam, I played through an Elf and it was impressive.

I appreciate all your thoughts

I don't know what means being tube guy. Tube is not magical device making everything sound good or identical. I would say, it may be trick to get people feeling the tube sound no matter what it is and tube actually does as well as lead some people there no matter the actual sound. There is amps truly taking advantage of real tubes (Mesa TT/WD, Aguilar 751 and some pres to name a few) but it does not mean that happens every time. I would say that if there is window for preamp tube for showcase then forget it. Probably same could be done without it.

I know, I know, that was provocative but there is also truth hidden in there.

 

[Pbman]

As far as "tube guy", all my other amps are are tube amps. Sunn, Traynor & Ampeg

 

[Pbman]

Played the GK, Berg ForteHP and Aguilar TH.
Not sure of the exact GK model and didn't really get a lot of time on it, but owned and sold on the other 2 quite quickly.
I'd have to have a tube or 3 in the pre amp stage.

"sold on" , meaning that you liked them or sold them off?

 

[denton57]

I don't know what means being tube guy. Tube is not magical device making everything sound good or identical. I would say, it may be trick to get people feeling the tube sound no matter what it is and tube actually does as well as lead some people there no matter the actual sound. There is amps truly taking advantage of real tubes (Mesa TT/WD, Aguilar 751 and some pres to name a few) but it does not mean that happens every time. I would say that if there is window for preamp tube for showcase then forget it. Probably same could be done without it.

I know, I know, that was provocative but there is also truth hidden in there.

The Revolt has a tube window (I can see the RCA 7025 I put in there), and it definitely brings a tube warmth. From my understanding, it requires a certain voltage to make it actually play a significant role. I'm not an engineer, but I am a tube amp guy - 73 SVT, 76 Bassman 100, Ampeg Pf20 - and have owned a dozen 70's Ampeg's, a Sunn 200s, Showman's, etc..

 

[teemuk]

Ive played through most of these, and I wonder ... if these are all using the same power module manufacturer. That would put all the tonal aspects squarely on the preamp sections.

How come? It's just a module and externally to it manufacturers can perform a wealth of unique things.

For instance, Fender Rumble V3 amps employ the same ICEpower modules as dozens of other manufacturers but they still implement a nice soft clipping peak limiter plus their "DeltaComp" compressor circuit to the power amp.

 

[GreyBeard]

The PAD you speak of is already on your bass. Just turn down your bass which will lower the input overload OR engage the input pad on your amp. If you just want a new amp that's OK, I've got a shed full of them.

 

[paskisti]

The Revolt has a tube window (I can see the RCA 7025 I put in there), and it definitely brings a tube warmth. From my understanding, it requires a certain voltage to make it actually play a significant role. I'm not an engineer, but I am a tube amp guy - 73 SVT, 76 Bassman 100, Ampeg Pf20 - and have owned a dozen 70's Ampeg's, a Sunn 200s, Showman's, etc..

But still tube, espesially single preamp tube, does not guarantee warmth. Like I said it pedends on what is wanted. I tried to write tongue-in-cheek but maybe I failed. Of course there is better designs with single tube, but how we know if it adds warmth or not if we cannot test the same preamp with and without tube keeping pre shape filters the same?