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Who played in Kenny G live?
- Thread starter masterFunk
- Start date
I think this is my point in the debate - so it is quite possible to think that somebody is a good player, but that they have terrible taste in music!!
Well I see you have chosen to ignore my main point - (see above) and comment on my choice of language...
Well I see you have chosen to ignore my main point - (see above) and comment on my choice of language...
As if you don't continue to ignore mine?
Back to the original topic, here is a thread I started not too long ago, along with some of Vail's comments.
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=419332&highlight=vail
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=419332&highlight=vail
How? First you explain what you think reactionary means and then I'll explain why the tag fits Metheny in reference to Kenny G (note: your explanation may negate me having to expand on this)
He is against political/social progression and is an archconservative because he's appalled at Gorelick for overdubbing himself onto Louis Armstrong?
Note: I wouldn't entirely agree that Wynton is a reactionary either.
Just so everyone gets it right, Louis Armstrong's 'voice' was dubbed onto Kenny G's version of the song. Not the other way around.
Yes but that was the original sin. The one after which there is no turning back. It was playing 'What a Wonderful World' along with Louis Armstrong, even though all credits were given to the original artist and it was on the up and up with Armstrong's label, that requires "true" artists to revolt. Such a blasphemy upon all of jazz. Musical necrophilia indeed.
So then what? Well if you look on Amazon under Kenny G; "What a Wonderful World" (the single) and thumb through the Customers Who Bought Items Like This Also Bought you will find that "16 Most Requested Songs ~ Louis Armstrong" turns up (Page 4). As does "The Essential Louis Armstrong ~ Louis Armstrong" (Page 5), and "Best Of Ella Fitzgerald & Louis Armstrong ~ Louis Armstrong" (page 5), and "The Definitive Collection ~ Louis Armstrong" (page 6), and so on. So it either got fans of Louis Armstrong to buy Kenny G (an act we all now know that does not occur in nature) or it got Kenny G fans to buy Louis Armstrong.
Now Metheny has a tough couple of choices. He either has to dig the hole a little deeper and proclaim to be a fan of the "truly great" artists (his words) the fan him/herself needs to rise up to a certain minimum level, and therefore Kenny G fans are not qualified to even own Armstrong's work, OR Kenny G is responsible for turning people on to Armstrong who otherwise wouldn't buy it.
So tell me. Who is doing more to get Armstrong's music to live out in the REAL world right now and who is just blowing smoke?? Which one is better for jazz as an artform, more or less Armstrong in the world? Woe what a travesty hath bestowed upon this world of jazz by the G-man....
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Satchmo overdubbed himself onto a Kenny G record? The bastard! I just burned my copy of the Hot Fives and Sevens!
Sorry, I need documented proof that so many feel this way! If millions of folks bought this record, it seemed to be a non issue!
Proof?
First, who said the tune was a jazz tune? It's a pop song! Therefore has nothing to do with the 'purity' of jazz! Why should it be an issue to some? Secondly, I think Kenny G did a good job in exposing L. Armstrong's music to millions of people resulting in folks researching and buying his original works! What's the problem there? Lastly......again, the tune is NOT a JAZZ tune! Therefore no impact on the JAZZ world!So tell me. Who is doing more to get Armstrong's music to live out in the REAL world right now and who is just blowing smoke?? Which one is better for jazz as an artform, more or less Armstrong in the world? Woe what a travesty hath bestowed upon this world of jazz by the G-man....
It just seems easy to dislike a Kenny G.........for no reason. Just jump on the bandwagon! How about some original thinking in this thread??
As an Amazon Associate, TalkBass may receive commissions from qualifying purchases made via links on this site.
Sorry, I need documented proof that so many feel this way! If millions of folks bought this record, it seemed to be a non issue!
OK Boss, we will be sure to get back to you as soon as we can canvas the list of customers you can provide. We will need names, home phone numbers, and detailed proof that they bought the record. Oh and what questions should we ask?
How about......how many records did that cd sell?......Oh and what questions should we ask?
Hey this is not my argument, this is Metheny's argument.
I think Metheny should have said "I was taken out of context and anything any artist does to promote Armstrong's music and get it out in the marketplace only helps jazz, and to that end I'm happy." But instead he doubled down on a silly argument. He needs to learn to stop digging.
Here's the "Proof".
Metheny:
"There must be hundreds, if not thousands of sax players around the world who are simply better improvising musicians than Kenny G on his chosen instruments. It would really surprise me if even he disagreed with that statement.
Having said that, it has gotten me to thinking lately why so many jazz musicians (myself included, given the right "bait" of a question, as I will explain later) and audiences have gone so far as to say that what he is playing is not even jazz at all."
OK, so if the "audiences" have disqualified his music as "non-jazz" and Louis Armstrong is (accroding to Matheney) "the single most important figure in our music." then audiences wouldn't be drawn to Kenny G coming from Armstrong. They have already defined Kenny as non-jazz.
So now how do you explain what happened on Amazon? The only way to do that is to come to the conclusion that Kenny G is actually helping to sell Louis Armstrong records. Clearly you know how royalties work, so we now have "retail necrophilia"... only now it's going the other way; from Armstrong to G.
How getting more music out into society from "the single most important figure in our music." is damaging jazz I have no idea, but that's the argument he is making.
My bigger argument is that anything defined as "jazz" and is selling in the marketplace can only have a positive spillover effect in the wider jazz community. Even if it's mischaracterized as jazz, it will have a positive effect on jazz. The only thing a mischaracterization could possibly do is have a buffering effect on what the music actually is. So if it's in fact pop, Kenny G's characterization of being jazz will hurt the pop community, not the jazz community.
With the whole Metheny slagging thing, maybe it would be good to put it in perspective: How would Dave Weckl and Dennis Chamber react if Phil Collins overdubbed himself onto a Buddy Rich track?
How did all the die hard Jaco fans react when Marcus Miller slapped Teen Town? I remember some negativity.
Most importantly however. How would the Norah Jones fans react if Jeff Berlin were to overdub himself over one of her tracks?
"Spewing his lame-ass, jive, pseudo be-bop, ahead of the beat, noodling, wimped out, f###ed up telecaster impression, $99 chorus pedal playing all over one of the great Norahs's tracks"
By disrespecting Norah, her legacy and by default, everyone who has ever bought a stable full of ash / maple boutique jazz basses, Jeff berlin has created a new low point in modern culture - something that anyone who has a penchant for posting videos of themselves slapping Brick house on Youtube should be totally embarrassed about - and afraid of.
Sorry for my sarcasm. Couldn't resist.
bongomania
Commercial User
Is nothing sacred? If some things are sacred and not others, then where do you draw the line? And how do you react when that line is crossed?
PM thinks Armstrong's music and legacy are sacred. His reaction was to revile the desecrater. You might think that's excessive or silly, but remember that over time millions of people have been killed for violations of "that which is sacred" in the hearts and minds of those doing the killing.
All those lesser examples like Norah Jones etc. are meaningless because I'm willing to bet nobody other than her and her label's lawyers think her work is sacred.
Oh yeah, and this is one more thing which has no logical relationship to the number of units sold.
PM thinks Armstrong's music and legacy are sacred. His reaction was to revile the desecrater. You might think that's excessive or silly, but remember that over time millions of people have been killed for violations of "that which is sacred" in the hearts and minds of those doing the killing.
All those lesser examples like Norah Jones etc. are meaningless because I'm willing to bet nobody other than her and her label's lawyers think her work is sacred.
Oh yeah, and this is one more thing which has no logical relationship to the number of units sold.
How would Dave Weckl and Dennis Chamber react if Phil Collins overdubbed himself onto a Buddy Rich track?
How did all the die hard Jaco fans react when Marcus Miller slapped Teen Town? I remember some negativity.
Most importantly however. How would the Norah Jones fans react if Jeff Berlin were to overdub himself over one of her tracks?
"Spewing his lame-ass, jive, pseudo be-bop, ahead of the beat, noodling, wimped out, f###ed up telecaster impression, $99 chorus pedal playing all over one of the great Norahs's tracks"
By disrespecting Norah, her legacy and by default, everyone who has ever bought a stable full of ash / maple boutique jazz basses, Jeff berlin has created a new low point in modern culture - something that anyone who has a penchant for posting videos of themselves slapping Brick house on Youtube should be totally embarrassed about - and afraid of.
Sorry for my sarcasm. Couldn't resist.
I like Marcus Miller's version of Teentown better than Jaco's and I like Alain Caron's version of Donna Lee much much better than Jaco's.
Hmmm.....a sacred pop song?!?! That's a new concept! I'd love to hear Bob Thiele's (using the pseudonym George Douglas) and George David Weiss' thoughts on the subject since they wrote the song.
bongomania
Commercial User
"Nobody" gives a rat's patootie about the lyrics. It's Armstrong's work that PM holds dear, and I think you knew that.
ugh...Millions and millions of kenny G's album sales were from being on Oprah so many times in the late '80s or early '90s, when she commanded her disciples to run out and purchase them. I suspect that no matter how vehemently you defend him, most respectable musicians will not agree with you.
I doubt that. He was doing quite well before appearing on Oprah! I bet you quite a lot of 'respectful' musicians don't have a problem with Kenny G!
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