Who Sets the TEMPO

[MtManiac]

I'm probably wrong. Playing over 40 years but that means nothing. I always felt the DRUMMER set and kept the tempo in line and the BASS set the groove. I'm in a yuppie band and the drummer is always consoling me to keep the tunes from running amok; I tell him it's his job. Any advice?

Everybody owns tempo.

I can't tell you how many drummers I've defended from either comments from other band members or the drummers themselves when we've had to restart a song at rehearsal because it was dragging - almost always, it is a tune with a guitar riff intro or a singer strumming an acoustic guitar.

The tempo problem with drummers tends to be slowing down or speeding up mid-song - inconsistent tempo. I'm not saying that's uniquely a drummer problem, just that it becomes most apparent when the drummer is doing it. But setting the tempo is not solely the drummer's responsibility, it is everyone's responsibility.

Bass doesn't "set the groove" - the groove is the connection between the drummer and the bass player, IMHO, and other rhythm instruments too, like a repetitive guitar chord up-stroke on the "and" of 1 and on the 3. I don't even know what "the bass player sets the groove" means to be honest. Rhythm section owns the groove; that's at least the bass player and the drummer, but all other rhythm instruments too. Have a listen to pretty much anything by Niles Rodgers.

I've played with some pretty awesome drummers; and I've also had one or two of them give me s**t for slowing the tempo down. They were 100% right, it was me in each of those cases. If you're driving your drummer crazy, spend some time practicing with a metronome - or him - and fix the issue.

Having said that, a drummer with inconsistent tempo is all but uncontrollable and will ruin the song every time they're inconsistent. So they have a lot of power when it comes to tempo. But the onus is still on everyone else to notice that by being aware of the tempo.

 

[jazzyvee]

My drummer told me we are all supposed to keep our own time.

 

[MtManiac]

It's shared responsibility, but IMHO there is nothing you can do to hold the tempo back if the drummer decides to run away with it, and refuses to accept any responsibility for time.

Ironically what you need to do is the opposite of what you will probably do. If the drummer thinks you are dragging, he/she will push the beat ahead and this will often cause the tempo to increase. You would think that if you pushed the beat the drummer would perceive you as rushing and pull back, but usually they just go with. If this is your situation there is nothing you can do.

What this seems to indicate to me is many drummers like to play tunes at a faster tempo than they are counted off at. There have been many times where I was playing a bassline in 4 like Johnny Be Good or Roll Over Beethoven that eventually get so fast that I have to start playing in 2 . And of course the drummer really thought it was grooving.

For about 6 months I was in a big band where the leader insisted time was the responsibility of the bass. Of course time was all over the place and the drummer rushed like crazy. The band leader kept getting on me, and there was nothing I could do to hold the drummer back. Eventually things changed and he started getting on the drummer. At that point time started settling down a bit again.

The problem with saying the bass owns time is it's not very clear where the ictus is. Since drums are a percussion instrument you hear the attack and the ictus is very obvious. With bass where people perceive the ictus can change depending upon where that sit in relation to the polar pattern of you bass speaker and also how you have the mids and treble adjusted. If they are in front of the speaker and you have the treble cranked up, players will perceive your ictus towards the front of the beat. But if players sit to the side of your speaker or you use a fairly dark tone, they will perceive your ictus way behind where it actually is.

Some players don't even really listen for you ictus. One of the last drummers I played with insisted that I use a big fat bassy sound. He wasn't keying off my ictus at all. Instead he was keying of the way the notes bloomed.

In order to maintain a good feel and a constant tempo, you and the drummer must agree on the size of the pocket. The pocket is basically the difference in where you place the beat versus where the drummer places the beat. The pocket should be constant within a section of a song, but may vary significantly from one song to the next. You may play ahead of the beat in one song and behind the beat in the next. Agreeing on the size and shape of the pocket is challenging and complicated by the fact that the drummer may not perceive our ictus where you are actually placing it due to the reasons I covered earlier.

In one way I would say the pocket can actually vary within a section of a song. The idea I am thinking of has to due with the rhythmic symmetry of measures. With some styles of music everyone plays right on the beat and all beats are perfectly even. With other styles the rhythmic symmetry may be slightly out of round. For example it's common and creates a really deep settled, groove with some styles if the drummer lays back a bit on the snare hits (beats 2 and 4). Course laying back might mean the drummer just doesn't rush beats 3 and 4. So the pocket may vary a bit within a measure, but the symmetry of each measure should be consistent.

I'd love to play with or take lessons from someone like you. You sound very knowledgeable and experienced.

 

[SLO Surfer]

Whoever counts the tune off sets the tempo, everyone is responsible for keeping it there. Typically drummers, singers, and/or bandleaders set the tempo by counting the song in. Everyone is responsible for contributing to and keeping the groove. If only one person keeps the groove and one person keeps the tempo, I believe the resulting sounds would be poopies.

 

[eloann]

My take is: whoever's playing the fastest line at any given time is the reference. There's very little one can do to alter someone's time when they're playing sixteenths and you're playing quarters.
It does mean everyone must be reasonably steady. Even vocals or a solo instrument can throw the whole band off (though experienced rhythms sections smooth out the edges).

One of the most enjoyable aspects of my trio is we're two ex-drummers playing guitar/vox and bass (plus an actual drummer) so we're really speaking the same language.

 

[Gustopher]

Two things;
1) The drummer and bassist work together, but ultimately its the drummers job to set tempo.
2) What is a yuppy band?

 

[buldog5151bass]

Any one person in the band can set the tempo, but no one should be dependent on anyone to keep it.

 

[Flashback Bass]

"Sets the tempo" not 'keeps the tempo'. Therein lies the difference. While our Drummer can keep a tempo he's not the best at setting a tempo. Most of the time he starts too fast. We ended up working it out like this. Since all four of us sing, who ever is singing lead, counts the song off. Unfortunately we play a lot of songs a little fast or slow from the original but it is what it is. Since I practice our cover tunes by playing along with the original on my Bass Trainer I like to think I have a pretty good feel on what the tempo should be.

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

I'm probably wrong. Playing over 40 years but that means nothing. I always felt the DRUMMER set and kept the tempo in line and the BASS set the groove. I'm in a yuppie band and the drummer is always consoling me to keep the tunes from running amok; I tell him it's his job. Any advice?

He's right.

 

[s0c9]

In every band I've played in, drummer sets the tempo by counting it in, EVEN if someone else starts" the song.
In bands where the singer (for example) doesn't have IEM's and can't hear a click, I want the drummer counting off and setting tempo on the hat.
Then, it's up to everyone to stay with the drummer.
As mentioned, if the drummer drags/speeds up, there's not much one can do but go with the flow.

Sure, not every drummer nails the starting tempo, so there are ways that other members can lead him to the correct tempo before he starts.

 

[RustyAxe]

Whoever counts the tune off sets the tempo, everyone is responsible for keeping it there. Typically drummers, singers, and/or bandleaders set the tempo by counting the song in. Everyone is responsible for contributing to and keeping the groove. If only one person keeps the groove and one person keeps the tempo, I believe the resulting sounds would be poopies.

Y'know, this is what I was thinking, too. As a singer, I'll give a four-count before starting, and THAT is the tempo. But sometimes one of us will count it off, we start at that tempo, but it becomes clear we're a few clicks too slow (always too slow, never too fast) and need to pick it up a tad. Then it's up to us, bass and drum, to bring the tempo up in a way that is almost imperceptible to the dancers on the floor. We don't think about it, we just do it.

 

[vvvmmm]

The drummer. Unless I have to.

Also, I hadda look up "ictus" (I'm actually currently reading Ryan Graudin's Invictus, what is a weird rhyme) - I've always called that, "the pulse".

 

[micguy]

The one skill that EVERY musician needs is good timing. Whoever starts the tune is responsible for getting the starting tempo right. Everyone else is responsible for keeping it in line when they're playing. The drummer typically takes the lead on timing, but they are situations - where the drummer starts to play a syncopated beat or something, that the bassist should take the lead in establishing where "1" is. Syncopation only works because it's pulling against something solid. At times, you're the solid.

 

[bassliner50]

For me it doesn't matter who sets the tempo, whether it be by counting, playing an intro, visual conducting etc. What does matter is keeping the tempo rock steady at any tempo. No rushing, no lag. Rubato is fine too and can be used to add drama if it is planned and everyone involved can feel it.

 

[La Faro]

Is this the 80's definition of a yuppie, or does 'Yuppie Band' mean something else? I'm perplexed why someone would say it. if it's the 80's definition.

 

[mambo4]

I always felt the DRUMMER set and kept the tempo in line and the BASS set the groove.

Everybody owns tempo, everybody must maintain awareness, listen and follow each other.
individuals rushing or dragging are simply not listening. Maybe they need to practice their part more.

 

[Carl Hillman]

I'm probably wrong. Playing over 40 years but that means nothing. I always felt the DRUMMER set and kept the tempo in line and the BASS set the groove. I'm in a yuppie band and the drummer is always consoling me to keep the tunes from running amok; I tell him it's his job. Any advice?

Whoever counts off the tune sets the tempo.

Everyone in the band keeps the tempo, but most of that responsibility is incumbent on the drummer and bass player since they are usually playing subdivisions of the time (and playing them throughout most of the entire song).

 

[DeepThoughts]

If this is a rehearsed situation, the tempos have been established and notated by the drummer. It is his job to recall the BPM and mark it off( clicks) for whomever starts the tune.
If we are "jamming" and this is a loser situation then the singer( melody) determines the tempo.
If the melody/lyrics don't find their pocket then it is time to get out the dixie cups and start bailing ....

 

[Biggbass]

The drummer drives the train
The bass player stokes the boiler fire

 

[TheDirtyLowDown]

Usually, the drummer sets the tempo, and everyone else helps keep it. There have been a couple of threads related to this lately; here's a response in one of them that I really like from @dreamadream99 :

The only metronome I ever played to was a conductor, but I maintain that tempo, timing, and rhythmic accuracy is an ensemble skill, and everything I ever learned about them was from tapping my foot with a hundred other people. Timing is more about listening than insisting or exerting your will. Timing is a contract you enter into mutually with all the members of your ensemble; it lives and breathes, and micro-adjusts in such small increments it isn’t even perceptible.

And when it’s done right, it is never about leading—it’s about following.​

(added emphasis mine) In my opinion, practicing with a metronome is great, but a metronome is infallible, and so when you start to drag or push the beat it doesn't respond ... and you correct yourself. The hard part about playing in time with a human drummer is that you can push or pull the tempo and they will respond. So, if you're speeding up or slowing down, you affect others. That's "exerting your will". So even when I think the drummer is wrong (ie, he's speeding up, or slowing down) I'm working to not push or pull on their beat, but to follow it.