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Who Sets the TEMPO

#61
I am struggling with this a little right now. My drummer is good at holding the tempo, but not as good at setting it. My guitarist is horrible at setting it. LOL. This is a problem since they start most of the songs. Granted it is difficult to set a tempo when you are coming right out of another song. We do not have time in between to hum it to yourself first or whatever. I also think the tempos are more critical when we play dance clubs then when we play other bars. I am just about to start using click tracks to at least start us off. We are always good at grooving and keeping a tempo, but sometimes I feel we are just a hair too fast or slow for optimal dancing.
 
#62
Daddy-R said:
I'm probably wrong. Playing over 40 years but that means nothing. I always felt the DRUMMER set and kept the tempo in line and the BASS set the groove. I'm in a yuppie band and the drummer is always consoling me to keep the tunes from running amok; I tell him it's his job. Any advice?
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Stanley Clark many years ago noted that the bass sets the tone along with the drummer. The drummer depends on the bass more than the other way around. He further noted that the bass is the instrument that is working throughout the song, the one that is working when no one else is. He was talking specifically about jazz, but I think this carries throughout all of the so-called "pop" idioms.

I have observed and learned that the best bands are nothing if not a reflection of the sync between the drummer and bassist. They inform each other. In the best collabs the drummer fashions his kick around the bass. Some will only kick on a bass pulse, maybe not every bass pulse, but never outside of a bass pulse. Sometimes the drummer will form his kick pattern as a supplement to the bass pattern. In either case your best sound has a solid link between the bass and drums, and the keys, lead, soloists and to a degree even the lead vocals lean heavily on their sync.

When I am on percussion, I do not follow the drummer for pace, pulse and fills. I primarily follow the bass and then listen for the drummer's presence. I either complement the drummer or interact with bass or work between the two. On sax, I feel best when I can hear a solid interaction between bass and drums. My compositions reflect a strong dependence on this as the foundation and framing for the song.

The best answer to the question is both - together. A drummer who looks to the bassist for pace and pulse is one that truly understands the vital connection for an excellent performance. The bassist feeds the drummer and together they lead the band and craft the performance. In your next listening session, listen for the tight sync between the bass and drums.

In the classical idioms, the drums are just another voice along with the strings, winds and the rest of the ensemble. The conductor determines the tempo. It is in pop that the drummer emerges as a timekeeper. The best drummers recognize that their key to awesomeness is their connection to their bassist.
 
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#64
When I played in jazz bands, playing mostly standards, the band leader called the tempo. But in jazz, there's not really a right tempo. You might adjust it up or down to make a good flow from the previous song. In rock? I prefer to let the singer do it. He's the one who is going to be the most saddled by it.
 
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#65
Daddy-R said:
I'm probably wrong. Playing over 40 years but that means nothing. I always felt the DRUMMER set and kept the tempo in line and the BASS set the groove. I'm in a yuppie band and the drummer is always consoling me to keep the tunes from running amok; I tell him it's his job. Any advice?
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The whole band affects the tempo but (IMHO) the drummer primarily keeps it. I have played in bands where there is a tendency for some members is pushing and pulling and, as much as I have tried to be a metronome, it doesn't work unless the drummer can do it, too.
 
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#66
Daddy-R said:
I'm probably wrong. Playing over 40 years but that means nothing. I always felt the DRUMMER set and kept the tempo in line and the BASS set the groove. I'm in a yuppie band and the drummer is always consoling me to keep the tunes from running amok; I tell him it's his job. Any advice?
Click to expand...
It's everyone's job. Even if the drummer sets the tempo you start at, anyone can push or pull the tempo. If the drummer doesn't listen to what the rest of the band is doing and adjust, the song may train wreck, and definitely is not going to be in the pocket.
 
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#67
JimmyM said:
Tis a pretty sad band where someone in it puts the responsibility for time keeping onto someone else and shirks their responsibility for it. It's also something that changes from song to song, from genre to genre. Quit trying to put it on each other and work together.
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I think the drummer in the original question was saying what you said. He LISTENS to the bass for his cues. This is a drummer who wants his input to blend and not blast. He would rather be Gronk than OB3. I often compliment drummers who understand that dynamic is not just an adjective for a fictitious duo, but a noun for a fantastic performance.
 
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#69
Daddy-R said:
I'm probably wrong. Playing over 40 years but that means nothing. I always felt the DRUMMER set and kept the tempo in line and the BASS set the groove. I'm in a yuppie band and the drummer is always consoling me to keep the tunes from running amok; I tell him it's his job. Any advice?
Click to expand...

I haven't read any of these responses, but here's my two cents....

As part of the RYTHYM section, it's as much your responsibility as it is any other member.... That goes for percussion, a piano player who may be comping or a rhythm guitarist. The "it's not my job" attitude will only conflate the issue, because you not trying to help address the issue, which leads to animosity.... even if it's only perceived.

The fact is, being a part of a band requires some level of people skills. Unfortunately, artist aren't always the best at this. So, it really takes everyone involved in being part of the solution once issues have been identified. Anything less is only evidence that you are not a team player, which makes you VERY replaceable.

EDIT: I guess that I will add that the above is about keeping time. The person who sets the tempo is whoever is responsible for counting the song off.... Usually the band leader or their delegate, who tends to be the drummer.
 
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#70
JoeWPgh said:
When I played in jazz bands, playing mostly standards, the band leader called the tempo. But in jazz, there's not really a right tempo. You might adjust it up or down to make a good flow from the previous song. In rock? I prefer to let the singer do it. He's the one who is going to be the most saddled by it.
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In any "pop" genre, the band leader determines the tempo. I saw Earth Wind and Fire perform the aphrodisiac ballad "Reasons", as an uptempo salsa. However, once the tempo was set it was the bass (Verdine White) and the drummer (I forgot who it was in 1980) together who kept the pulse going, and informed the rest of the band where the song was headed.

In jazz, the bass pattern tells the drummer where he may want to sock instead of splash or kick instead of ring. Since these two are the voices you will hear the most, the better the sync between these two, the better the performance.
 
#71
Daddy-R said:
I'm probably wrong. Playing over 40 years but that means nothing. I always felt the DRUMMER set and kept the tempo in line and the BASS set the groove. I'm in a yuppie band and the drummer is always consoling me to keep the tunes from running amok; I tell him it's his job. Any advice?
Click to expand...
Drummer and vocal, because there are melodies on fast tempos that are not real for vocals.
 
#72
kirkplunkett said:
I haven't read any of these responses, but here's my two cents....

As part of the RYTHYM section, it's as much your responsibility as it is any other member.... That goes for percussion, a piano player who may be comping or a rhythm guitarist. The "it's not my job" attitude will only conflate the issue, because you not trying to help address the issue, which leads to animosity.... even if it's only perceived.

The fact is, being a part of a band requires some level of people skills. Unfortunately, artist aren't always the best at this. So, it really takes everyone involved in being part of the solution once issues have been identified. Anything less is only evidence that you are not a team player, which makes you VERY replaceable.

EDIT: I guess that I will add that the above is about keeping time. The person who sets the tempo is whoever is responsible for counting the song off.... Usually the band leader or their delegate, who tends to be the drummer.
Click to expand...

Someone may announce the tempo, but who is the primary navigator for the performance? Those who have maritime experience or knowledge know that the guy at the helm may spin the wheel, but it is the folks in steerage that operate the rudder. The folks in steerage operate the rudder, but they need the guy at the helm to tell them when and where to direct the rudder. This is the relationship between the bass and drums. In any "pop" genre what voices do you hear the most from beginning to end?
 
#74
And I said:
It's everyone's job. Even if the drummer sets the tempo you start at, anyone can push or pull the tempo. If the drummer doesn't listen to what the rest of the band is doing and adjust, the song may train wreck, and definitely is not going to be in the pocket.
Click to expand...
Drums and bass should attempt to hold the tempo, especially in rock. Everyone should be doing this, but as we know, not everyone is as attentive as they ought to be. Nobody should be speeding up or slowing down once the tempo is called, and I don't really care if it's counted off slower or faster than someone thinks it should be. As someone mentioned above, changing tempo mid song really makes you sound like an amateur. If you can't own any tempo and lean into what was counted, you need more practice. It won't be perfect if it's called wrong, but no one's going to notice that but you. The audience just wants a steady beat. The singer will suffer the most for it, so it's best to get it right the first time.

I figure if you mess it up and you have to own it, it only happens once.
 
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#75
JimmyM said:
Tis a pretty sad band where someone in it puts the responsibility for time keeping onto someone else and shirks their responsibility for it. It's also something that changes from song to song, from genre to genre. Quit trying to put it on each other and work together.
Click to expand...

Yes. Time keeping is everyone's job. I find that a lot of drummers drag, and guitarists rush. When you get both together, you get a russian dragon, lol.

Actually, I play with a wide variety of younger players. Most are much less conscious of time keeping than I am, so it is often a rather tiresome experience dealing with dragging or rushing drummers. At a blues jam I regularly help host, I do not hesitate to tell the drummer, even during the song, that they are rushing or dragging. How?

In loud voice, "You are dragging. Stop it!" (or rushing, or not on the same one, or even same meter, heaven forfend).

Sometimes I feel like it is a seminar in basic musicianship, not a jam, haha.
 
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#76
Tempo can be a very subjective thing, even among a combo of musicians who are all very competent and experienced, and all of whom agree on terms of musical direction and quality. Tempo is always the wildcard; in every band I've been in even with some incredible well-rounded musicians there is always a serious discussion about setting and maintaining tempo on at least a few tunes. With a group of perhaps less-than-stellar musicians, it can be a persistent ongoing concern.

In bands I have managed, the ideal is one individual has a better sense of appropriate tempo than the rest, and I would always try to make that person the drummer. If the drummer just couldn't hack it, sometimes I would take the lead and face the band at intros and count in songs. Sometimes the intro isn't the drummer at all, and if the guitar or keyboard player gets charged with setting the tempo at the intro, they had better have a good sense of appropriate tempo parameters. If not, they can wait for me or the drummer to count them in, and the drummer may need to work the hat to maintain appropriate tempo through the intro.

After the tempo is set, I always charged the drummer with maintaining appropriate tempo throughout, encouraged others to acquiesce to that mentality, and implored the drummer not to give in to the temptation of chasing another musician trying to alter that tempo. Work this out in rehearsal, not on stage. It's a humorous learning curve listening to players getting half a measure behind or (more commonly) ahead of the drummer before finally waking up and reining it in.

I realize that in some bands tempo shifts are a natural and even welcome part of the music; things speed up and slow down, and that's more of a full-band dynamic. But in my bands, which are mainly pop/rock/dance/funk/variety mainstream crowd-pleaser party cover bands, steady tempos start to finish are the norm, and I need a drummer who gets that.

Also, if the drummer truly gets it, he won't change tempos during fills. That one seems to throw everyone off in a most obvious and unpleasant way that even the tin ears in the audience can hear.

tldr: It's a common issue and worthy of a thorough non-confrontational discussion, specific to your music and goals, for the greater good.
 
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