Yes....as long as everybody agrees...then it's up to the rhythm section. This seems so basic to me....any other way seems like chaos to me....or is that called Jazz.
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Who Sets the TEMPO
- Thread starter Daddy-R
- Start date
For us, whoever starts the song sets the tempo, but we are decent at getting it close without a count-in. In my brain the drummer and I share the responsibility to keep it tight, but if he is regularly missing a part, it is his responsibility to fix it, and visa versa.
''It's shared responsibility, but IMHO there is nothing you can do to hold the tempo back if the drummer decides to run away with it, and refuses to accept any responsibility for time.
Ironically what you need to do is the opposite of what you will probably do. If the drummer thinks you are dragging, he/she will push the beat ahead and this will often cause the tempo to increase. You would think that if you pushed the beat the drummer would perceive you as rushing and pull back, but usually they just go with. If this is your situation there is nothing you can do.
What this seems to indicate to me is many drummers like to play tunes at a faster tempo than they are counted off at. There have been many times where I was playing a bassline in 4 like Johnny Be Good or Roll Over Beethoven that eventually get so fast that I have to start playing in 2. And of course the drummer really thought it was grooving.
For about 6 months I was in a big band where the leader insisted time was the responsibility of the bass. Of course time was all over the place and the drummer rushed like crazy. The band leader kept getting on me, and there was nothing I could do to hold the drummer back. Eventually things changed and he started getting on the drummer. At that point time started settling down a bit again.
The problem with saying the bass owns time is it's not very clear where the ictus is. Since drums are a percussion instrument you hear the attack and the ictus is very obvious. With bass where people perceive the ictus can change depending upon where that sit in relation to the polar pattern of you bass speaker and also how you have the mids and treble adjusted. If they are in front of the speaker and you have the treble cranked up, players will perceive your ictus towards the front of the beat. But if players sit to the side of your speaker or you use a fairly dark tone, they will perceive your ictus way behind where it actually is.
Some players don't even really listen for you ictus. One of the last drummers I played with insisted that I use a big fat bassy sound. He wasn't keying off my ictus at all. Instead he was keying of the way the notes bloomed.
In order to maintain a good feel and a constant tempo, you and the drummer must agree on the size of the pocket. The pocket is basically the difference in where you place the beat versus where the drummer places the beat. The pocket should be constant within a section of a song, but may vary significantly from one song to the next. You may play ahead of the beat in one song and behind the beat in the next. Agreeing on the size and shape of the pocket is challenging and complicated by the fact that the drummer may not perceive our ictus where you are actually placing it due to the reasons I covered earlier.
In one way I would say the pocket can actually vary within a section of a song. The idea I am thinking of has to due with the rhythmic symmetry of measures. With some styles of music everyone plays right on the beat and all beats are perfectly even. With other styles the rhythmic symmetry may be slightly out of round. For example it's common and creates a really deep settled, groove with some styles if the drummer lays back a bit on the snare hits (beats 2 and 4). Course laying back might mean the drummer just doesn't rush beats 3 and 4. So the pocket may vary a bit within a measure, but the symmetry of each measure should be consistent.
there is nothing you can do to hold the tempo back if the drummer decides to run away with it
That sums it up. Rushing is usually the problem. Best solution to rushing is to subdivide out loud eventually if you rush then you won't be able to articulate the subdivisions.
If you have to do that, you're not in a band. You're in music class.
We wound up putting our drummer on a leash (click). Some drummers sound really bad with a click, but this guy was awesome!
It's pretty much the drummer to me, once in a while the bass might open a song, then it's up to me. But everyone else can make it a lot easier for him/her if they can do it as well. A guitar play who can't keep the tempo during a solo etc. can make it really hard to find the pocket.
The drummer has a biggest influence over time but it is everybody's responsibility to adhere to a set beat.
With that said some people can't keep steady time. I have had drummers who speed up immediately after count off. It no fun for anybody.
I have had problems with other band members (rhythm guitarist)telling me that I am rushing or dragging the beat on songs he sang depending on his mood.
I told him that I have to change chords when he changes, I have to finish with his vocal line, so how can I be dragging if we are all together?
Recording and listening back may be the only answer.
With that said some people can't keep steady time. I have had drummers who speed up immediately after count off. It no fun for anybody.
I have had problems with other band members (rhythm guitarist)telling me that I am rushing or dragging the beat on songs he sang depending on his mood.
I told him that I have to change chords when he changes, I have to finish with his vocal line, so how can I be dragging if we are all together?
Recording and listening back may be the only answer.
The tempo is on the drummer 100% but a headstock nod from the bassist is what everyone looks for at the turn around.
Whoever wrote the tune, or brought it to the band as a cover, generally sets the tempo, unless they opt to let the drummer do it.
No drummer in our band. Whoever starts the song sets the tempo. I've found that during solo rides is when the tempo is apt to rush or drag and it is unknown until you get there which it will be. As long as there are vocals, the time is pretty steady. Having given all my wisdom here, I've also found that no matter which it is, I (the bass) get the blame.
With all due respect, what is the “ictus”? I’ve never heard that term before.It's shared responsibility, but IMHO there is nothing you can do to hold the tempo back if the drummer decides to run away with it, and refuses to accept any responsibility for time.
Ironically what you need to do is the opposite of what you will probably do. If the drummer thinks you are dragging, he/she will push the beat ahead and this will often cause the tempo to increase. You would think that if you pushed the beat the drummer would perceive you as rushing and pull back, but usually they just go with. If this is your situation there is nothing you can do.
What this seems to indicate to me is many drummers like to play tunes at a faster tempo than they are counted off at. There have been many times where I was playing a bassline in 4 like Johnny Be Good or Roll Over Beethoven that eventually get so fast that I have to start playing in 2
For about 6 months I was in a big band where the leader insisted time was the responsibility of the bass. Of course time was all over the place and the drummer rushed like crazy. The band leader kept getting on me, and there was nothing I could do to hold the drummer back. Eventually things changed and he started getting on the drummer. At that point time started settling down a bit again.
The problem with saying the bass owns time is it's not very clear where the ictus is. Since drums are a percussion instrument you hear the attack and the ictus is very obvious. With bass where people perceive the ictus can change depending upon where that sit in relation to the polar pattern of you bass speaker and also how you have the mids and treble adjusted. If they are in front of the speaker and you have the treble cranked up, players will perceive your ictus towards the front of the beat. But if players sit to the side of your speaker or you use a fairly dark tone, they will perceive your ictus way behind where it actually is.
Some players don't even really listen for you ictus. One of the last drummers I played with insisted that I use a big fat bassy sound. He wasn't keying off my ictus at all. Instead he was keying of the way the notes bloomed.
In order to maintain a good feel and a constant tempo, you and the drummer must agree on the size of the pocket. The pocket is basically the difference in where you place the beat versus where the drummer places the beat. The pocket should be constant within a section of a song, but may vary significantly from one song to the next. You may play ahead of the beat in one song and behind the beat in the next. Agreeing on the size and shape of the pocket is challenging and complicated by the fact that the drummer may not perceive our ictus where you are actually placing it due to the reasons I covered earlier.
In one way I would say the pocket can actually vary within a section of a song. The idea I am thinking of has to due with the rhythmic symmetry of measures. With some styles of music everyone plays right on the beat and all beats are perfectly even. With other styles the rhythmic symmetry may be slightly out of round. For example it's common and creates a really deep settled, groove with some styles if the drummer lays back a bit on the snare hits (beats 2 and 4). Course laying back might mean the drummer just doesn't rush beats 3 and 4. So the pocket may vary a bit within a measure, but the symmetry of each measure should be consistent.
- Oct 18, 2012
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It's the drummer that sets tempo......even in studio work before the computer age, the drum tracks were always committed first.
Personally, I prefer to push slightly with an on-the-beat drummer, even if the drummer fatbacks the snare a bit and this combination works best on most pop and dance music.....for me, push drummers are the most aggregating to work with as I have to constantly hold the drummer back which changes what I play immensely. This situation is absolutely no fun for me and I won't play in a band with a push drummer unless as a hired gun
Personally, I prefer to push slightly with an on-the-beat drummer, even if the drummer fatbacks the snare a bit and this combination works best on most pop and dance music.....for me, push drummers are the most aggregating to work with as I have to constantly hold the drummer back which changes what I play immensely. This situation is absolutely no fun for me and I won't play in a band with a push drummer unless as a hired gun
