Vocalists have physical issues that require knowing in advance how and when and how much they are going to breathe, how and when to set the abdominal muscles in a certain way, etc. If you mess them up, tempo-wise, it's not fun for them. So even those maniacal tempos that these professional singing groups strike are well rehearsed and well thought out and rehearsed at specific tempos that will not work out well for the singers if they're changed.
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Who Sets the TEMPO
- Thread starter Daddy-R
- Start date
My. answer is based on 50 years of working with some of the best and some of the worst.
Usually the vocalist calls the song and counts it off. Then it is up to the band to hold THAT tempo, with the drummer and bass player acting as enforcers. If the vocalist does not call the tempo, then it usually defaults to the drummer who may double check with the band before counting it off.
In a competent group, everyone holds the time and there may be some give and take between the verses . Its a shared thing. My time is good because I have paid my dues and wok at it daily ( see my avatar). The people I play with are the same way.
If I see the band is having a problem holding time, I work with the drummer to police the time. If the drummer cant hold time, I will hold it and never play with rhem again. Forcing time is something i will do for beginner students or jam sessions, but not for a performance. I will take or turn down jobs based on the drummer available.
I see lots of threads on TB about bad drummers and others with bad time. You cant change them, but you you practice your ass off so you can play with a better level of musicians.
One last story. Took an audition with a "leading cover band". It was just me and the lead singer/vocalist. He slowed down on the difficult guitar parts but i didnt budge. His remark was i didnt groove and that he kept time and everyone else followed him. I deep sixed that audition and got the hell out asap.
Usually the vocalist calls the song and counts it off. Then it is up to the band to hold THAT tempo, with the drummer and bass player acting as enforcers. If the vocalist does not call the tempo, then it usually defaults to the drummer who may double check with the band before counting it off.
In a competent group, everyone holds the time and there may be some give and take between the verses . Its a shared thing. My time is good because I have paid my dues and wok at it daily ( see my avatar). The people I play with are the same way.
If I see the band is having a problem holding time, I work with the drummer to police the time. If the drummer cant hold time, I will hold it and never play with rhem again. Forcing time is something i will do for beginner students or jam sessions, but not for a performance. I will take or turn down jobs based on the drummer available.
I see lots of threads on TB about bad drummers and others with bad time. You cant change them, but you you practice your ass off so you can play with a better level of musicians.
One last story. Took an audition with a "leading cover band". It was just me and the lead singer/vocalist. He slowed down on the difficult guitar parts but i didnt budge. His remark was i didnt groove and that he kept time and everyone else followed him. I deep sixed that audition and got the hell out asap.
devnulljp
Supporting Member
I think this is the correct answer, but he never shows up to rehearsal.
This is in jazz, right? I think it's different for most rock bands, but I also think that nowadays it's incumbent upon most rock drummers to know the correct tempos in BPM and either be good enough to get it right by internal feel or use a device that gives them the correct tempo to count.
I agree with you about all of the other stuff. Life is too short for me at this stage and I won't work with a drummer who isn't precise anymore. They are not all perfect, but if they don't rise to a certain minimum standard which includes steady tempo and clean fills, I don't waste time with them.
+1, I've had numerous complaints from singers saying they can't get their breathing right if the tempo is outside a certain range.
That point also applies to soloists who have worked things out to a general tempo parameter, and then suddenly on stage they are forced to play at a different (usually faster) tempo. If they can pull off the solo at all, it's not as discernible and musical as it was when they practiced it.
Indeed, music that sounded great on a recording can sound squashed and forced if the tempo is too fast, like a dirge if too slow, and that negatively impacts all musicians on the stage. Once-beautiful lines get compressed or exaggerated and lose their value.
As I read the original post the question was who sets the tempo, not who keeps it. To me "setting the tempo' is counting off the tempo to play the song at.
Absolutely. And then a post-performance conference may be in order. Hopefully a civil discussion regarding the tempo of particular songs will yield better results. Is this asking too much?
I agree with that statement 100%. I was only addressing the sentiment that the tempo (or timing) of a jazz tune, standard or not, should be loose. I would have support the statement if the implication was referring to groove, but it was not. In jazz, the bass keeps time, tempo and groove at all times.... If you aren't counting, except the doodoo eye from the band leader at some point during the gig.
Shared responsibility, but of course the drummer has the greatest control over tempo. If a drummer consistently speeds up or drags, there's little you can do ... except get a different drummer.
It helps to have someone in the band who is grooving ON BEAT to the music. I have seen how that visual, usually unintentionally, keeps the tempo steady. It also becomes more contagious and the whole band gets a boost. Just my unscientific observation.
I guess I was always a bit more collaborative with the drummer. The way I see it, the bass owns beats 1 and 3. The drummer dictates 2 and 4. That interaction has a lot to do with how hard something swings (or rocks, whatever)
In my humble opinion you are absolutely correct. It is 100% the drummers responsibility to set the tempo, keep the tempo, and make the tempo changes within the song that the composer created or the band agrees upon.
I have been in situations where the drummer becomes dependent on the bass player to set the tempo and when that has happened there are only three possibilities. Get the drummer straightened out, get a new drummer, or quit the band.
If I'm doing a lot of work keeping the drummer and lead on tempo, then something is wrong. That said, there are groups where this does fall on your shoulders as the bassist. Ideally, the lead would set the tempo, the drummer should hold it down, and the bass player should be creating the rythmic and harmonic foundation right there in the pocket.
The thing about a bassist pushing and pulling the tempo is that the drummer is playing all the subdivisions, so it's just easier for everyone to hear the tempo and meter the way the drummer spells it out. The only one in the band that should really be listening to the bass player for tempo information is the drummer, because the bass can nudge the drummer to adjust on the margins if the lead is pulling back or driving forward, or something else is happening in the group that requires adjustment.
The thing about a bassist pushing and pulling the tempo is that the drummer is playing all the subdivisions, so it's just easier for everyone to hear the tempo and meter the way the drummer spells it out. The only one in the band that should really be listening to the bass player for tempo information is the drummer, because the bass can nudge the drummer to adjust on the margins if the lead is pulling back or driving forward, or something else is happening in the group that requires adjustment.
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IME an irregular drummer turns a band into a slinky. If the drummer oscillates it radiates outward until it’s got the whole band chasing time. When it really sucks is when things are real close but there’s still that little nag telling you it ain’t right. Sometimes it lasts a song, maybe a set, maybe forever...
I guess they are polka band musicians at heart.It's shared responsibility, but IMHO there is nothing you can do to hold the tempo back if the drummer decides to run away with it, and refuses to accept any responsibility for time.
Ironically what you need to do is the opposite of what you will probably do. If the drummer thinks you are dragging, he/she will push the beat ahead and this will often cause the tempo to increase. You would think that if you pushed the beat the drummer would perceive you as rushing and pull back, but usually they just go with. If this is your situation there is nothing you can do.
What this seems to indicate to me is many drummers like to play tunes at a faster tempo than they are counted off at. There have been many times where I was playing a bassline in 4 like Johnny Be Good or Roll Over Beethoven that eventually get so fast that I have to start playing in 2. And of course the drummer really thought it was grooving.
