Why are there few 12" loaded bass cabs?

[GregC]

This is an interesting statement that gets repeated often on TB. I would like to see someone prove it.

Among other cabs, I've tried (A) Bag End S-15Ds, (B) Epifani UL-310s, (C) Fearful 15/6s, (D) Acme B-2s (2X10) and (E) own an NV610.

B, C and D had gobs of low end compared to most bass cabs. A and E, on the other hand, were pretty mid-focused. And anyone with the same experiences would very likely agree--certainly opinions posted here indicate that.

It seems no answer is going to be good enough for you, I'm just leaving this here for others.

 

[And I]

Cabinet size / volume, how it's ported, what cone material is used, how the speaker surround is constructed, how the voice coil is constructed, what the cabinet is filled with (if it is filled with anything), how much total speaker cone surface is involved, etc. All of these will have more influence on the sound of a speaker cabinet than the diameter of the cone.

Barefaced Bass - Why nominal diameter tells you nothing about tone

 

[Stealth Fighter]

Among other cabs, I've tried (A) Bag End S-15Ds, (B) Epifani UL-310s, (C) Fearful 15/6s, (D) Acme B-2s (2X10) and (E) own an NV610.

B, C and D had gobs of low end compared to most bass cabs. A and E, on the other hand, were pretty mid-focused. And anyone with the same experiences would very likely agree--certainly opinions posted here indicate that.

It seems no answer is going to be good enough for you, I'm just leaving this here for others.

Everyone who has responded to my original post has attacked me because you think I said that each diameter of speaker had its own inherent sound. Then, you go on to give me anecdotal evidence as to why they don't. People, all I said is that I would like to see someone prove it. I was merely making a genuine honest statement as to my desire to know. Until now, I have never read where anyone on TB has ever tried to prove it. Maybe I missed it; maybe not. Frankly, my hearing is so damaged that I can barely differentiate between noise and silence. I'll read And I's link. Perhaps he has offered something other than opinion.

Re: "Take a Peavey Scorpion 10". then take a 10" from an Acme cab and tell me they sound anything alike."

B-String, this sounds to me like he was joking, because comparing two 10" drivers says nothing about the similarities or differences between 15" drivers and 10" drivers, which I believe was the original premise. I could be wrong about that, but at this point, I don't care enough to go back and check. Further, it does seem to imply that individual drivers can have their own inherent tone/sound.

Anyway, I didn't mean to get anyone's panties in a wad. Cheers, and have a good night.

 

[B-string]

Not to belabor this all, but out of interest what would be considered proof? The conversion of electrical power into sound is a complex issue so parameters would need to be defined.

No waded panties here .

 

[Stealth Fighter]

Not to belabor this all, but out of interest what would be considered proof? The conversion of electrical power into sound is a complex issue so parameters would need to be defined.

No waded panties here .

Honestly, I don't know enough about the subject to answer your question. I just know that certain cabinets sound better to me than others, and that the better sounding cabinets usually, but not always, have a certain size driver. Could I identify driver size in a blind test? Likely not, but as you said, "...sound is a complex issue". There are many variables other than driver size.

 

[Nephilymbass]

There's some 12 inch loaded cabs that sound sick. I just don't buy them because of size vs volume. There are some 212 cabs that are pretty loud but with those price comes into play also.

 

[Trisfae]

I called my local music store....

"They stopped making 12" drivers. Your only choices are 10" or 15""

Times haven't changed at all. This was in response to "Do you have any 412s on hand used?"



Love this thread it's very informative so far.

 

[monsterthompson]

Love this thread it's very informative so far.

Glad a thread started 16 years ago is still relevant.

 

[agedhorse]

I called my local music store....

"They stopped making 12" drivers. Your only choices are 10" or 15""



Love this thread it's very informative so far.

Wow, either your local music store has no clue or I have been designing speakers of the "wrong size" for the past 10+ years. Yikes

 

[BassmanPaul]

Glad a thread started 16 years ago is still relevant.

Especially considering the OP was last seen on this site on December 22 2000!!

 

[Illbass]

Classic thread! I asked myself this question today and had to see what I could find on TB and here I am.

I see responses about how some people prefer their 12"ers but that's not really answering OPs questions. Almost in 2017 and I still notice 10" drivers in bass cabinets are definitely more prevalent than 12" drivers when comparing to the half and full stacks. I think that was the original observation, and not so much questioning the availability of 12" extension cabs or practice amps.

I agree that trendiness/popularity/availability/tradition/weight/cost all seems like viable reasons. But I bet there's some good reasons behind the designs of guitar vs bass cabinets and the way that these drivers are interacting with their enclosures. Hopefully someone with a deeper understanding of loudspeaker and cabinet design will come along and elaborate or correct me.
I would say a majority of bass players use ported cabinets, so the resonant properties of the port are going to determine the lowest frequency response more than the drivers themselves. I would think that, generally speaking, 10" drivers have better transient response than 12s, which is important for a harmonically rich bass tone, midrange frequencies for cutting through a mix, a good slapping tone, chords and upper register playing. So with a good cabinet design, the lows can still be accomplished and the price will be lower than a 4x12 design.
I would think a ported cabinet with 4x12s would have to be larger, for proper compliance in the air space. An Ampeg 4x10hlf is already like 90lbs and has higher power handling than the Marshall 4x12 for guitar. So I would think the magnets of the drivers are larger. Making that Ampeg cabinet a 4x12 design, the cabinet would get larger and drivers heavier.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think guitar cabinets are mostly open baffle or sealed. The the cabinets are smaller and the drivers aren't designed for the high excursion of that would be needed for low frequency reproduction.

Sorry, long comment, I'll stop there

 

[nostatic]

Glad a thread started 16 years ago is still relevant.

As always, TB delivers!

 

[AshokanKid]

Just over one year later & I'm going to add to this MOST interesting & informative thread.
First, for those who may whine & cry about "reviving an ancient thread" (not sure why some lose their minds & consider this such a big deal in Their World?), speaker cabinet design is as old as the drivers (speakers) themselves and although there are certainly new designs, acoustical engineering began a VERY long time ago and MUCH of that information is STILL quite relevant.

As a young guitar player in the mid-late '60's listening to Led Zeppelin & Hendrix as well as TONS of Motown, I wanted to swing with this groove. My dad was an architect & craftsman who built our 4 bdrm house from scratch & we had an extensive wood shop.
Taking plans from Altec Lansing & JBL (cab design books) and with my dad's router / planer, I then followed The Grateful Dead and others who hand built their own speaker cabinets. Mine were all designed as "full range" cabs with an eye to most efficient & effective bass response.
This typically meant sealed back designs OR tuned ports in order to reduce cabinet size for the lowest bass response per driver area. There are many wonderful formulae for this very purpose!

Fast forward 40 plus years, lots of on & off guitar playing (more off than on), family came along & then all grew & gone and now I'm somewhat "retired" and diving headlong into learning about the bass (and I'm only 60 plus years young, PLENTY of time left!).
I've got a few older heads (Markbass, Ampeg, Ashdown & most recently a Trace Elliot GP7SM 250) with a severe lack of cabinetry, which is why this thread was / is of such interest.
There is a strange Fender 4 X 12 slant cab in my basement that I'm considering playing around with (buried behind dual Harley Sportsters, ahem) and was curious about the current modern take on 12's for bass. This Fender slant is a weird cab with left & right front baffle halves facing a few degrees off center, as for dispersion purposes. Interesting . . .

I've got some very nice Cetec Gauss speakers to play around with, as well as an assortment of EV, JBL, Celestion, etc. and am about to embark on testing / playing. Let the games BEGIN.

THIS thread is what has now inspired me. Thanks~!

 

[Steve Dallman]

For the past nearly 4 years, I've used a couple of 12" cabinets I built (modified EV TL806 cabinets). I used cheap MCM 12" 350 watt drivers (with a 6.5" mid and tweeter). These things go deeper than the pair of PV 18's I used back in the 80's through the 90's. Far greater X-max and low frequency extension.

I'm moving toward fEARfuls, as my age keeps growing and my strength goes the other direction.

I can see no reason to schlep 15's or larger around anymore.

 

[dreamadream99]

And that brings up another variable: as time goes on, technology improves, and there are smaller, lighter, more powerful 12 inch cabinets, than older 15 and 410 configurations, which sound even better. There are far fewer reasons not to consider 12’s.

 

[2saddleslab]

Been an avid fan of 12's over 30 years.

 

[bklee]

Because most bassists are lemmings View attachment 1201909 They're followers, they use what they see. Manufacturers make what they sell the most of. For example, if Flea or Victor Wooten used reasonably priced 12" loaded cabinets you can bet someone could sell a bunch of them.

I have a BareFaced 2x12 Big Twin II. It is now my medium-big cabinet of choice (big-big is the BareFaced 6x10). It weighs 49 pounds and moves a lot of air.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I have a BareFaced 2x12 Big Twin II. It is now my medium-big cabinet of choice (big-big is the BareFaced 6x10). It weighs 49 pounds and moves a lot of air.

Okay.


That quote was from almost 18 years ago. My current rig is a tiny sealed 10-12 cab. Lots of people use twelves now. Heck, Aguilar sold a ton of GS112 cabs years ago. Things changed.

 

[TJBass]

Yep...12s

 

[blubass]

I've been using 12"ers since 1968, and still believe it's one of the finer speaker sizes over all.

Well, this should be interesting

What makes a 12" speaker more "fine" than something else?

Keywords and phrases you can't use to describe them:

More lows than xyz
More highs than xyz
More mids than xyz
Faster response than xyz



I kid, but really though, you've managed to get lucky with 12" loaded cabinets. To attribute the pleasing sound you hear solely to the speaker diameter is vastly undercutting the cabinet engineering that plays a bigger role in speaker performance.