Why didn't Gibson and Epi basses catch on?

[Sleeq]

Well I don't want to sound redundant so I'm just going to mention something no one mentioned yet:

Fender basses, due to design choices and simplicity in construction, can be modified easily by the player, and it's not that expensive to do so.

Just look on TB... how many "what should I do to my P/J" or "Check out my tweaked P/J" etc etc.

It gave the player a sense of individuality or uniqueness.

 

[Dynacord]

Well I don't want to sound redundant so I'm just going to mention something no one mentioned yet:

Fender basses, due to design choices and simplicity in construction, can be modified easily by the player, and it's not that expensive to do so.

Just look on TB... how many "what should I do to my P/J" or "Check out my tweaked P/J" etc etc.

It gave the player a sense of individuality or uniqueness.

Quite true -- and this is a big part of why original condition pre-CBS Fenders are worth so much - so few survived without some sort of modification (and often not reversible).

 

[CC7]

I'm pretty sure the Fender Precision was the first electric bass.
And the Stratocaster guitar was based off the Pecision bass, rather than the other way around.

 

[Crazyeelboy]

Over the years I have done a lot of experimenting with different basses and of the Gibson/Epis I have owned a Ripper, a Grabber, an SG and now have an Epi Explorer and an Epi Flying V.

In defense of the Gibbys, I never had a tone problem with them - I was always able to dial in a good sound, but I didn't like the feel on any of them. I do like the Epis for what they are - I got them purely for visual effect on stage and because they came in at about $300 new for each of them. I can get a good sound from them and they play well, except the ergonomics of the odd shapes. Neither the Explorer nor the V would become my main bass, but they are good for a change of pace now and then.

 

[Batmensch]

I can't remember whether my EB-3L had the bass pickup at the neck end or the middle position, but I do remember the tone on it was not muddy at all. It surely had a good lot of bottom end, but, IMO, it had some good punch too that sat in the mix pretty damn well. We used to record our rehearsals on a cheap Sony portable tape casette recorder, and you could hear the bass quite clearly. That was one quibble about that bass I never had, the tone. If I could get one like it with that same tone and playability, minus the bad dead spot, I would definitely want to get one.

 

[BluesBear]

I'm pretty sure the Fender Precision was the first electric bass.
And the Stratocaster guitar was based off the Pecision bass, rather than the other way around.

The first commercially produced fretted electric bass was made in Seattle in 1936. It was the Audiovox Model 736. (Audiovox had introduced an electrified upright bass in 1935)
The 736 was a 30.3" scale instrument which is where Gibson came up with the scale length for their basses.

So while Fender came up with their Precision bass in 1951 and Gibson didn't introduce their first bass (EB-1) until 1953 Audiovox beat them both by FIFTEEN years.

And even though Leo Fender named his first bass The Precision because he claimed it was the first fretted bass thus allowing anyone to play with correct intonation, Gibson had been already been producing their fretted Mando Bass and Banjo Bass for decades.

The original Fender Precision Bass featured a slab-sided body like the Telecaster guitar. The contoured body Stratocaster came along in 1954 and the Precision didn't get a contoured body until late 1956. Followed by the split pickup in early 1957.

 

[GlennW]

Well I don't want to sound redundant so I'm just going to mention something no one mentioned yet:

Fender basses, due to design choices and simplicity in construction, can be modified easily by the player, and it's not that expensive to do so.

Just look on TB... how many "what should I do to my P/J" or "Check out my tweaked P/J" etc etc.

It gave the player a sense of individuality or uniqueness.

That's true, BUT for the first 15-20 years or so there wasn't an abundance of aftermarket parts available for Fender stuff. So Gibson and everybody else were at no disadvantage because people could easily modify their Fenders. Mods were nowhere near as commonplace as they are today; the parts weren't there.

I don't know why Fender basses were so prominent, but there are many albums that listed "name - Fender Bass" in the musician credits. It wasn't uncommon at all to see that, and I can think of no other instrument where the brand name was often included in the credits.

 

[KingRazor]

The SG basses are just terrible, IMO. They don't play well and they don't look good. They don't sound that great either.

Thunderbirds I like the tone of, and the playability isn't bad. They just aren't very ergonomic.

I prefer Gibson when it comes to guitars, but Fender will always beat them when it comes to basses. Again, IMO.

 

[BluesBear]

I don't know why Fender basses were so prominent, but there are many albums that listed "name - Fender Bass" in the musician credits. It wasn't uncommon at all to see that, and I can think of no other instrument where the brand name was often included in the credits.

Because the American Federation Of Musicians created the instrument catagory of "Fender Bass" to differentiate between members who played traditional upright double bass from those members who only played bass guitar.

That way leaders looking for standup bassist didn't mistakenly contract someone who only played bass guitar.

And they really couldn't call it Audiovox Bass or Gibson Bass because both companies, at that time, also manufactured upright acoustic basses. Fender was the only one producing ONLY fretted electric basses.

 

[Dynacord]

Because the American Federation Of Musicians created the instrument catagory of "Fender Bass" to differentiate between members who played traditional upright double bass from those members who only played bass guitar.

That way leaders looking for standup bassist didn't mistakenly contract someone who only played bass guitar.

And they really couldn't call it Audiovox Bass or Gibson Bass because both companies, at that time, also manufactured upright acoustic basses. Fender was the only one producing ONLY fretted electric basses.

True but also true that actual Fender basses were used on far more recordings and were used by more key session players than any other electric bass in the '50s and '60s (think of Joe Osborn, Carol Kaye, Jamerson, Bob Babbitt, Chuck Rainey, Duck Dunn, David Hood, Tommy Cogbill, etc, etc -- all Fenders) -- Gibsons were used on some great stuff but they were the exception (even if there were some very notable exceptions)

Thunderbirds I like the tone of, and the playability isn't bad. They just aren't very ergonomic.

While it didn't come from the factory like that, after relocating the strap button and using a 4 inch wide, suede backed strap, my t-bird is just as comfortable to play as my Fenders (no neck dive at all - and the tone kills)

That's true, BUT for the first 15-20 years or so there wasn't an abundance of aftermarket parts available for Fender stuff. So Gibson and everybody else were at no disadvantage because people could easily modify their Fenders. Mods were nowhere near as commonplace as they are today; the parts weren't there.

That didn't stop people from modding them anyway... -- I worked in a repair shop in San Francisco and the things I've seen.... mudbuckers and other pickups crudely routed into otherwise pristine jazz basses, custom color finishes sanded off (this happened to many, many instruments in the late '60s-early 70s going for a 'natural' look) and/or carved - and then of course the '70s-80s lots of countersunk badass bridges. I particularly remember a '59 Les Paul flametop made into a double cutaway the list goes on... most of those mods were done a long time ago - though, a little later, I have to mention the otherwise original '56 strat with a locking trem installed using a hammer and chisel. Point being I don't think it is only a recent compulsion for people to want to mod instruments and the lack of commercially available aftermarket parts did not stop many people from doing so.

 

[famstd]

I've had Fender and Gibson basses. I'll take the Fenders for the reasons, Fender offers more choices of models, finishes, fretboards. Gibson availability isn't the greatest either. It just seems that Fender cares more about their bass lines. Gibson seems to be more interested in the LP and SG Guitars than basses.

 

[GlennW]

And they really couldn't call it Audiovox Bass or Gibson Bass because both companies, at that time, also manufactured upright acoustic basses. Fender was the only one producing ONLY fretted electric basses.[/FONT][/COLOR]

I've never heard of a Gibson acoustic upright bass from the '50s-'60s. There were plenty of non-Fender fretted electric basses in the '50s. Where do you get your info, the internet?

 

[BluesBear]

I've never heard of a Gibson acoustic upright bass from the '50s-'60s. There were plenty of non-Fender fretted electric basses in the '50s. Where do you get your info, the internet?

I got most of my Gibson/Epiphone information from studying my collection of Gibson literature from the 1920s through the 1980s that I started collecting in 1963 as well as several historical books such as "American Guitar" and "The History of Gibson" all of which were published LONG before AlGore invented the internet.

After WWII Gibson was unable to resume production of its acoustic basses because the majority of their bass jigs and equipment had been rendered unuseable because of damage and neglect during the war years. They were left selling refurbished basses and new old stock. Their parent company Chicago Musical Instruments had other brands of lesser quality basses to sell but they wanted a premium line.

Also, after WWII Epiphone wasn't doing so well. Its founder, Epi Stathopoulo, had died during the war and his son Orphie wasn't the best company president. Guitar production was fizzling out and their basses were the only thing keeping their doors open. CMI had first attempted to purchase Epiphone (and Gibson) before the war but Epi had refused all offers so CMI purchased Gibson in 1944.

So around 1952 CMI (Gibson) apporached Orphie Stathopoulo about acquiring Epiphone's bass making equipment. In 1956Orphie finally agreed to sell the equipment to CMI for $20k delivered.

When everything arrived in Kalimazoo, Michigan they discovered they had bought Epiphone, lock, stock and barrel. EVERYTHING. They had all of Epiphone's parts, blueprints, patents, semi-produced instruments and machinery. Most of Epiphone's workforce had already either retired or defected to Guild.

So, no I don't think Gibson was selling new production basses in the 50s but I know they were selling basses with the Gibson name because I used to have several Gibson/CMI price lists from the late '40s and early '50s listing them.

Just because YOU haven't heard of something doesn't mean it did't happen.

The important point of my previous post was that, when the American Federation Of Musicians (aka The Musicians Union) created the catagory of "Fender Bassist" in the early 1950s there were certainly NOT "plenty of non-Fender fretted electric basses" on the market.
At that time, Fender, Gibson and Martin were the big three fretted instrument manufacturers and Martin wasn't making a bass.
Epiphone was dying and Guild was just getting started. When I joined the AFM in 1971 (local 11-637), the members directory still used the catagory of Fender Bass. I know this for a fact since that is how I was listed. And there were still call-outs for Fender Bassists.
Of the two catagories of Bass and Fender Bass, there weren't all that many listed in both. IIRC the ratio of Bassists to Fender Bassists was about 3 to 1.

I didn't figure on being nit-picked to death, so I guess I what I should have said was, And they really couldn't call it Audiovox Bass or Gibson Bass because there were already upright, acoustic basses carrying those brand names still being sold and/or played. While Fender was the only one who had never produced any other type of bass than fretted and electrified.

If you notice in Fender literature there is often a very extensive list of Trade Marks, Trade Names and Registered Marks. But the term Fender Bass is NOT one of them since it had already been long used as a GENERIC title for bass guitarist.

 

[KingRazor]

While it didn't come from the factory like that, after relocating the strap button and using a 4 inch wide, suede backed strap, my t-bird is just as comfortable to play as my Fenders (no neck dive at all - and the tone kills)

There's more to it than the neck dive. I don't like the shape of the neck either. The few I've played (admittedly Epiphones, not Gibsons) had pretty chunky necks that were on the wide side. I have fairly large hands so it's not so much a problem, I just personally prefer thinner, narrower necks.

Plus, I like to rest my thumb on the pickup, so the shape of the pickup covers on a bass is actually a little important to me. It won't make or break a bass for me, but it's still a factor I consider when buying a bass.

 

[frankie5string]

Gibson had an upright bass? I recall them having a Da-Gamba bass... but not a true doghouse...

 

[Dynacord]

There's more to it than the neck dive. I don't like the shape of the neck either. The few I've played (admittedly Epiphones, not Gibsons) had pretty chunky necks that were on the wide side. I have fairly large hands so it's not so much a problem, I just personally prefer thinner, narrower necks.

I can't comment on the Epiphone t-birds as I've never played one. The necks on the '60s and '70s Gibson reverse t-birds are thin/narrow - essentially a copy of a jazz bass neck. And, of course, the Gibsons are neck through where the Epis are bolt-on (and I think they did some that were set neck and probably some neck throughs as well but I don't know).

Plus, I like to rest my thumb on the pickup, so the shape of the pickup covers on a bass is actually a little important to me. It won't make or break a bass for me, but it's still a factor I consider when buying a bass.

Fair enough. Mine has the chrome covered pickups and chrome surround rings (actually two rings as there are black plastic spacers under the chrome rings) which serve well as a thumb anchor - even that whole raised ridge of the center block serves as a usable thumb rest running the entire length of the body. Of course, this was somewhat accidental and not by design (as was true with Fenders - they were not designed with using the pickups as thumb rests as a consideration but rather, the opposite - to anchor the fingers and play with the side of the thumb like a pick - hence the 'tug-bars' and chrome pickup covers). It really is amazing how much Fender got right from the beginning (and, as is obvious, I would say about the original t-birds, too - which borrowed a lot from the jazz basses but I like the pickups much more) - really beyond arguments about CNC accuracy and quality control, I don't see Sadowsky, Lakland, etc having contributed that much of significance to the overall design concepts relative to the original designs (great basses that they are).

As to BluesBear's points, yes, I've seen Gibson uprights before though some as he said were just branded as Gibson (I recall seeing one that I think - I could be mistaken - had a "made in Germany" sticker inside). I worked at McCabes Guitar Shop in Santa Monica in the early/mid '80s and we had one of the fretted Gibson mandobasses in there - interesting novelty piece but not of much practical use.

Yes, also on the term "Fender Bass" having been a generic term before "electric bass" or "bass guitar" regardless of the actual brand being used. I think the term came into use for the reason he mentions but also as, for many people, the first electric bass they ever saw was a Fender -- Fender did a far better job than anyone before of popularizing and marketing the instrument. The Audiovox basses were notable in the evolution of electric basses but not very many people ever saw them or were aware of them - and the first precisions were wholly original in comparison owing in many ways more to guitars than previous basses. I also recall the AFI in Los Angeles still having the "Fender Bass" category as late as the '80s.

 

[Batmensch]

I just want to say, great stuff here guys. The wealth of knowledge here is amazing.

 

[aquateen]

I'm pretty sure Fender decided to use bolt on necks to make mass production easier, less time consuming and more profitable, not to make it easier for players to mod.

 

[Dynacord]

I'm pretty sure Fender decided to use bolt on necks to make mass production easier, less time consuming and more profitable, not to make it easier for players to mod.

Also easier to replace just the neck when "worn out" (they actually said that) of if a neck warped or twisted.

 

[Legattabass]

I think tone is the other significant factor beside neck dive, price and neck feel (I actually don't mind the necks, personally).

With the PA systems and bass amps of the 60's, the last thing you needed was a mudbucker, especially if it was on a short-scale bass. Plug an EBO into an older low-wattage tube amp and a 2*15, and all you get is mush. Back then, boom was easy to find, but clarity was harder- cutting through a wall of loud guitar amps was a bitch, and Fenders edged Gibson big-time on the clarity stakes.

Now that the majority of bassists play through solid-state or hybrid amps and small-driver cabs with lots of "zing", I've noticed that Gibsons are undergoing something of a resurgence...

Thank you for this comment. It's proven very true for me.

I have a fender MIM P with a 1/4 lb pickup, a 50w Orange combo amp, and a Hartke 3500 head on a Fender 4x10 cab. On the practice Amp, the P sounds superb. On the Hartke/Cab, it sounds far too bright, aggressive and even trebly (this is with low/low-mid/mid EQing, generous use of the low-pass filter, etc). In other words, with the higher output solid state amp, it sounds honky.

Enter an Epi Goth Thunderbird I just purchased. On my little combo amp, it sounds muddy and indistinct. On the Hartke...

WOW.

No honkiness. No zingyness. SOLID, booming bassyness with warm sounding mid and upper-mid tones. Almost as if I were using a tube amp. Even if I crank the bridge pickup and open up the tone, it still sounds wonderful.

So I completely agree that modern, solid-state amps which are almost TOO clear and TOO aggressive sounding, pair very very well with the muddiness of Gibson and Epi basses. And given the low cost of the goth t-bird and the Hartke 3500 amp head, I've found myself a very low cost rig