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Why didn't Gibson and Epi basses catch on?

I've personally owned four Rippers, two G3s and one Grabber.
All original models bought brand new. The only one I didn't like the sound of was the Grabber. I just couldn't get friendly with that sliding pickup. I could never find a sweet spot and it didn't take long for it to become loose and also the connection became noisey.
 
Personally, I love a nice T-Bird, but this dang thing is just a frickin' atrocity.

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Thank God for Hipshot...

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A lot has already been kicked around but I think another important factor should be mentioned. Fender was a California company at a time when the west coast hot rod, custom car and surf culture was projecting a great influence on much of American youth. Fender's styling (sleek curves and contours) and choice of colors, their adoption of bright candy and metallic finishes was right in tune with those trends. CBS continued to follow the strategy by putting racing stripes on the "competition" models of the lower priced instruments.

While Gibson did a number of futuristic body styles (that I also like), somehow they seem more science-fiction or Soviet space program than hotrod or Bonneville lakes roadster.

AFA sound, as has been mentioned, Fender also found an excellent fit in the Soul/R&B/Funk genres which were also finding their legs during that time.

Peace,
S
This is so right, I can't believe it.
 
I guess Gibson knew how to make a good jazzbox guitar. However their bass building was a direct result, or response, to the market for electric basses. I guess a market response is never going to be as honest a creation as the first production basses, but that could just be me.

Things I see as 'wrong' about Gibson basses.

The mudbucker. It makes sense to have some sort of pickup down there adding some sort of frequencies to the general mix. However unless Gibson pre-empted reggae, that thing would not be so much use on its own, especially given the rather delicate and underpowered equipment of the day. Jack Bruce's tuned fart is never emulated, even though his playing definitely is.

Fragile headstocks. Ok I understand you should not throw your basses tuners-first into walls, but they should survive the occasional accident. I see massively fragile headstock-to-neck contact points as a design flaw. It might make sonic sense to get that back angle over the nut, but if it ruins the integrity of the neck.

Suspect bridges. Obviously this was ammended but I understand that under string tension the original T-bird bridges could go for a little aerobatics. People will come and claim this never happened to them, so I suspect it was not a common fault, but it still suggests a lack of structural integrity.

General clumsy dimensions. I've never warmed to the T-bird. To me its about 10% too big in all directions. Its like moving in behind some clunky furniture, not an extension of the body (and the brain muscle especially). It is healthy to swap round instruments and to be adept at different models, but to me it was like being a small child trying to pull lego bricks apart again. I feel that Gibson never sat down with a bassist and said 'what do you want from us?'. Instead they made a bass SG, a bass firebird and a bass ES355 and wholesale dumped the same construction methods into that design.

Having said that I will never really warm 100% to their guitar designs either. The SG will change pitch in a light breeze and is headstock heavy. The Les Paul is a crudely designed boat anchor with minimal ergonomic effort. The Firebird is a too-little-too-late Jazzmaster response with clunky features.

Then you get all those periphery Gibsons they only sold a handful of. The Marauder? The Ripper, the RD (another boat anchor apparently). Sure they dabbled with Moog engineering and different construction styles, but they seem at odds. Their best known and loved product is the Les Pauls churned out in 1958 (after much revision of the original design, which hit the shops with an impossibly rubbish trapeze bridge).

Even today they still churn out offbeat junk nobody buys. Who bought the Goth ES-175? Who bought their Voodoo gear? The Jonas Brothers' Melody Maker? Who payed good money for the Clapton ES-355 knowing they were getting an overpriced plywood guitar? Now they honour guitar collectors with Les Pauls they happened to pay for. Know they honour Slash's non-Gibson-made Les Paul he recorded Appetite with. Now they try and make a Jimi Hendrix stratocaster starter pack. To me Gibson will always be blundering old capitolists trying to turn a quick buck by half-apeing the general trends of the day. Rickenbacker atleast preserved their original integrity of no copies and no huge production runs. Gibson would sell their Granny to make any sort of profit. They should be making a Milton Friedman Les Paul Junior where you have to buy the pickup separately....
 
My favorite bass is the Gibson Grabber. It's got the longer scale, and it just has that little edge on it that suits my tone perfectly. My second favorite bass tone-wise that I've played would be an Epi T-bird, but GOD the ergonomics are terrible. Extremely headstock-heavy.

Other than that I'm very "meh" on gibson basses, but then I'm pretty "meh" towards fenders as well. I've just never been able to dial in my tone with them, despite their versatility.
 
So many great points have been made here by both Gibson and Fender fans. Fender did/does a much better job marketing their bass products and their prices are lower. Many musicians, especially the budding young pro-wannabes, are continually short on cash and automatically opt for the less expensive option. This short cash flow thing creates a ready-made market. I have owned different models of each brand and have never really found one to be "better" than the other - just "different." I still own a '51 replica precision and am the original owner of both a '76 Thunderbird and a '74 4001 Rickenbacker and I play them all regularly. They all have their particular strengths and weaknesses, but if you are playing music it's all good.
 
This is a timely discussion; I just picked up an Epi Goth T-bird last night. Nothing broken, nothing damaged, works fine.

I've had bad GAS for a T-bird for a while. Unplugged, it sounds phenomenal, rings out loudly in a way my alder MIM P Bass doesnt (as if unplugged means all that much). Plugged in, it has all the muddy tonal characteristics I've been warned about. No definition, controls that don't seem to drastically effect tone, etc.

Actually, if it sounds good unplugged but lousy when plugged in, that means that you have a really good instrument with lousy electronics. Although I don't have any personal experience with Epis, I have heard that the Ebi Birds are notorious for yucky pickups. If it were me (and it might be soon), I would yank out all of the electronics (the pots are allegedly lousy too) and replace them with something decent.

I have a rare Tobias that has the current Gibson T-Bird pickups in it, and they are cool as hell. In fact, it's like the perfect Gibson bass - all the ergonomics of Tobias with the killer punchy sound of a real T-Bird.
 
I had a '69 EB0 about 15 years ago. I loved the way it played and I thought it looked really cool, but I could not get anything other than a muddy rumble out of it no matter what amp/effects I ran it through. I've always felt bad about selling it, but that's the way it goes.
 
I had a '69 EB0 about 15 years ago. I loved the way it played and I thought it looked really cool, but I could not get anything other than a muddy rumble out of it no matter what amp/effects I ran it through. I've always felt bad about selling it, but that's the way it goes.

See, that's the gripe *I* have always had - the tone on every gibby I played (except for a t-bird) was a mud fart.

Now, that "Mud Fart" tone is all the rage these day, so maybe that's why Gibbys are suddenly considered great. Dunno for sure - but I I've always "wanted to want" a gibson, if you follow, since my 1st bass as a gibby. Alas...
 
I'm not fond of short scale, and I'm not fond of neck diving.

I actually kinda like the mudbucker. Even in the copy I had, the previous owner had added a bridge pickup from a Peavey T-40 though, balancing the tone a bit.

Just doesn't seem as if Gibson is, or ever was, as devoted to the bass market as Fender. And I'm not a Fender guy, either.
 
The Grabber is the only exception I've found to most of the Gibson stereotypes. It's brighter than most, neckdive is minimal, mine only weighs 7.5 pounds, and the headstock is quartersawn. That being said, I can understand why it didn't take off- it can be an ergonomic nightmare, the bridge is garbage, and the neck isn't exactly svelte.
 
I feel that when Gibson started making basses, it asked itself the question "How do we make a bass that is a Gibson?", rather than "How do we make a great bass?"

The result is Gibson guitar body shapes, with humbuckers at the neck and/or bridge. Its a Gibson Bass, but is it the best bass they could have come up with? I am not sure.

Look at Rickenbacker, their bass was a complete rethink and redesign from the guitar line.

While Fender copied their guitar shapes, they quickly adopted a unique pickup system for the P.
 
To me Gibson will always be blundering old capitolists trying to turn a quick buck by half-apeing the general trends of the day. Rickenbacker atleast preserved their original integrity of no copies and no huge production runs. Gibson would sell their Granny to make any sort of profit. They should be making a Milton Friedman Les Paul Junior where you have to buy the pickup separately....

I would definitely buy a Milton Friedman Les Paul. The only thing better would be a Fred Hayek Les Paul. These are great men with great ideas.
 
I feel that when Gibson started making basses, it asked itself the question "How do we make a bass that is a Gibson?", rather than "How do we make a great bass?"

The result is Gibson guitar body shapes, with humbuckers at the neck and/or bridge. Its a Gibson Bass, but is it the best bass they could have come up with? I am not sure.

Look at Rickenbacker, their bass was a complete rethink and redesign from the guitar line.

While Fender copied their guitar shapes, they quickly adopted a unique pickup system for the P.

I agree completely. While there was much carryover from the guitar designs in both Fender and Rickenbacker's case (bolt on construction and basic look with Fender, mostly electronics with Rickenbacker), there were significant design changes in order to make them work as basses.

The P-bass took much from the Tele, but it's shaped significantly differently in order to accommodate the longer neck.

The 4000 and 4001 share some bits with earlier Rickenbacker models, but they were designed as basses, rather than just being a bass version of an existing guitar model. Also significantly, both Fender and Rickenbacker, in their original single pickup designs, placed the pickup more in the middle of the body (with Rickenbacker's being closer to the bridge), rather than right up against the neck. This resulted in a more balanced tone that did well with the amps of the time and worked well in the mix. Later, when Rickenbacker added the second, neck pickup with the 4001 model, they put a low-cutting cap in the signal for the bridge pickup to keep things from getting too muddy (and too hard on the speakers of the time).

Why did Gibson initially use a single pickup, right up against the neck in their basses, resulting in so much low end that it didn't cut through mixes that well and killed speakers? Well, look the single pickup acoustic/electric jazz guitars they made earlier. Where's the pickup? Right up against the neck. As mentioned earlier by someone, Gibson wanted their basses to be more like upright basses in sound, as well, so they wanted lots of low end, and were, as mentioned, slow to embrace the new rock & roll music of the time, unlike both Fender and Rickenbacker.

While Gibson EB series basses were somewhat common in the 60's, as things got louder and louder, the fact that they didn't cut through well may have become more of a problem.

Fender basses, on the other hand, worked just fine in a loud mix. Same with Rickenbacker basses, though very different.

And of course, both Fender and Rickenbacker have seemed to spend much more attention on the bass department than Gibson does.

Gibson has produced some great basses, and the T-bird has proved successful (though it might be moreso if they'd never discontinued it). And to be fair, they probably sell plenty more basses than Rickenbacker does. But they sell many many times more guitars, whereas the with both Fender and Rickenbacker, I suspect the numbers of basses sold and number of guitars sold are a lot closer than they are with Gibson.

Which isn't to say I don't like Gibson instruments. They make my favorite guitars, and some really cool basses. But their approach just doesn't seem as bass oriented as other companies.