Why didn't Gibson and Epi basses catch on?

[KingRazor]

I can't comment on the Epiphone t-birds as I've never played one. The necks on the '60s and '70s Gibson reverse t-birds are thin/narrow - essentially a copy of a jazz bass neck. And, of course, the Gibsons are neck through where the Epis are bolt-on (and I think they did some that were set neck and probably some neck throughs as well but I don't know).

Fair enough. Mine has the chrome covered pickups and chrome surround rings (actually two rings as there are black plastic spacers under the chrome rings) which serve well as a thumb anchor - even that whole raised ridge of the center block serves as a usable thumb rest running the entire length of the body. Of course, this was somewhat accidental and not by design (as was true with Fenders - they were not designed with using the pickups as thumb rests as a consideration but rather, the opposite - to anchor the fingers and play with the side of the thumb like a pick - hence the 'tug-bars' and chrome pickup covers). It really is amazing how much Fender got right from the beginning (and, as is obvious, I would say about the original t-birds, too - which borrowed a lot from the jazz basses but I like the pickups much more) - really beyond arguments about CNC accuracy and quality control, I don't see Sadowsky, Lakland, etc having contributed that much of significance to the overall design concepts relative to the original designs (great basses that they are).

Interesting, guess I need to try a real Gibson T bird at some point.

 

[BrenBass]

Last year I needed to get a new bass urgently, for gigging as my MM Sabre needed to spend some time in the bass hospital due to years of use. Without a whole lotta cash I tried the Squire Jazz and Jaguar basses, found them light in tone and weight and lacking that certain oomph I'm used to from the MM. For the same money I tried the Epi T-bird Pro. Thru neck, active electronics and waaaay better finish (even though its made in China). I bought it. Now I'm not saying its as good as a Fender 4x the price, but it is considerably better than the Fender/Squires at the same price.

I was worried about neck dive - there is none of this if you move the strap button to the end of the neck (5 min job - not sure why they don't do this anyway) and yes, it takes some getting used to. Now I understand why Entwhistle used to play in the way he did. If you rest your forearm along the top and play over the neck pickup its really comfortable on a long gig - any other position is agony after 20 mins.

I think the thing with the T-Birds and perhaps any other Gibby bass (used to have an SG bass which i loved) is they take some getting used to and most people learn on some kind of Fender copy (because they are cheap to make) so its only natural that when they upgrade the Fender (and derivatives) basses feel right.

These days I gig on a MIA Fender Jazz (lovely) and the Sabre (my no.1 bass forever!) but the T-bird gets a lot of use in the studio 'cause nothing sounds like it and sometimes live - because a shape like that looks better on than off IMO

 

[Count Bassie]

+1, and for some reason, I am kind of glad that they didnt.

[/IMG]

Yep, whenever I see one of these I get that very distinct memory- almost tangible. I had a nice EB-0 when I was a new player, and modded it with a Badass-I bridge and a DiMarzio Model-1 pickup. Nice bass; but youth and stupidity seemed to go hand-in-hand for me! Went away for a lost cause I won't name. Oops...

 

[mkelly004]

Coming from that era and having had an EBO and an EB3 in the late sixties as my main basses I'd say the tone . Mudbucker is about right for the tone , mostly a booming indistict mess . I thought the small pickup on the EB3 would clear up the sound some but it just added some nasalness to the muddy sound . Jack Bruce got some cool sounds out of his by knocking all the low end off and playing through a few stacks of Marshalls and the dude from the band Free got good sounds from his but I couldn't get mine to sound good with any amp or in any band .I thought the necks on the Gibsons and Epiphones were great and the build quality too but they just didn't work for me .

A Jazz or P bass both had a much clearer sound through any of the not so great bass amps of the time . Gibson T birds were great sounding and playing basses too as were Hagstoms and the Guilds then . Gibson sold a lot of EB0s and EB3s because Jack Bruce used them but they didn't work for most players .

I purchased my 1st Gibson Double cut-away bass in 1959. I had been an upright player since 1957 and preferred the short scale to get more notes under hand (no need to shift for minor's). Next a 1972 Gibson LP recorder for studio work (low impedance into board). That along with my 2000 LP and 2002 SG, both 5 string, all get played depending on gig. These all have been played thru everything from Sunn 2000 (600wt double D140 2 x 15"s to Ampeg B12 (15wt 1 x12"). If you understand the room and KNOW bass and amp setting you can replicate what is needed from these basses. I have worked with name entertainers (6 years in Veags and all over the world). I'm a bass player still working for 63+ years not a guitar player relegated to shredding bass lines continuously over all band members. I've tried other manufactures and just can't get what my ear or hands need.

 

[Zooberwerx]

I purchased my 1st Gibson Double cut-away bass in 1959. I had been an upright player since 1957 and preferred the short scale to get more notes under hand (no need to shift for minor's). Next a 1972 Gibson LP recorder for studio work (low impedance into board). That along with my 2000 LP and 2002 SG, both 5 string, all get played depending on gig. These all have been played thru everything from Sunn 2000 (600wt double D140 2 x 15"s to Ampeg B12 (15wt 1 x12"). If you understand the room and KNOW bass and amp setting you can replicate what is needed from these basses. I have worked with name entertainers (6 years in Veags and all over the world). I'm a bass player still working for 63+ years not a guitar player relegated to shredding bass lines continuously over all band members. I've tried other manufactures and just can't get what my ear or hands need.

Well, we knew somebody was buying them. The shorter scales have become a godsend as I age.

Riis

 

[dbsfgyd1]

It's no secret that Fender basses are everywhere. Seems that half of all pro bassists play fender fours. But what I barely ever see is the Gibson and Epiphone basses of the same era (EB's, rivolis, etc)

I personally love the sound of a gibson semi hollowbody and a mudbucker, but how come they never totally caught on?

Do you really want to know? Fenders sound better recorded, mix well with other instruments, and much easier to master recording for play on AM car and transistor radios that most people had back in the 50’s and 60’s. Think what would happen if that fat bottomed sound of a mud bucket pickup was stuffed in to a 2” speaker in a hand held radio?

The other thing is Fenders were significantly less expensive the Gibsons which made them the choice of starving musicians

 

[Low End Scum]

Do you really want to know? Fenders sound better recorded, mix well with other instruments, and much easier to master recording for play on AM car and transistor radios that most people had back in the 50’s and 60’s. Think what would happen if that fat bottomed sound of a mud bucket pickup was stuffed in to a 2” speaker in a hand held radio?

The other thing is Fenders were significantly less expensive the Gibsons which made them the choice of starving musicians

I was gonna say, the mud buckers are not nearly as utilitarian as the P or J sound. T Birds are cool and some Gibby/Epi basses have been rad over the years, but the impression I've always gotten from them is that they were an afterthought behind the guitars.

This coming from someone who does have a Gibson bass (1975 Ripper). I have that, but I also have 2 J's, a Squire Bass VI, and an Fender acoustic bass.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

I was gonna say, the mud buckers are not nearly as utilitarian as the P or J sound. T Birds are cool and some Gibby/Epi basses have been rad over the years, but the impression I've always gotten from them is that they were an afterthought behind the guitars.

This coming from someone who does have a Gibson bass (1975 Ripper). I have that, but I also have 2 J's, a Squire Bass VI, and an Fender acoustic bass.

I had 2 EB3s and one Rick. Then when I started recording in the mid 70's, they just sounded out of place. And I wouldn't discount the price difference factor. Having lived through this time frame, Gibson was considered a prestige instrument than the mass production Fenders Just my two cents.

 

[frankie5string]

Do you really want to know? Fenders sound better recorded, mix well with other instruments, and much easier to master recording for play on AM car and transistor radios that most people had back in the 50’s and 60’s. Think what would happen if that fat bottomed sound of a mud bucket pickup was stuffed in to a 2” speaker in a hand held radio?

The other thing is Fenders were significantly less expensive the Gibsons which made them the choice of starving musicians

Not exactly. The musicians unions had a section for "Fender Bass" when you went to book your studio or backing musicians. This played a large part in how prevalent the sound was. But look at how much electric sitar showed up on records when the Danelectro company gave them to players to use - figuring that if enough tracks on the radio had "that sound" people would go out and buy them...

Gibson instruments were always more expensive, though. Gibson also didn't really market their instruments as tools like Fender did - they focused much more on advertising like a furniture company. That must have seemed strange for people looking for the perfect *tool* to make records and such.

 

[Aussie Player]

How lucky are Gibson users, that so many experts condemn these instruments.
Imagine the used prices of some of these, made as few, as a couple/few of hundred per year in the '60's?
I don't know how I can sleep now I know all these design faults are just so ubiquitous. Oh....the shame!

 

[dbsfgyd1]

Not exactly. The musicians unions had a section for "Fender Bass" when you went to book your studio or backing musicians. This played a large part in how prevalent the sound was. But look at how much electric sitar showed up on records when the Danelectro company gave them to players to use - figuring that if enough tracks on the radio had "that sound" people would go out and buy them...

Gibson instruments were always more expensive, though. Gibson also didn't really market their instruments as tools like Fender did - they focused much more on advertising like a furniture company. That must have seemed strange for people looking for the perfect *tool* to make records and such.

I very well remember the days when you looked at a bass chart, it either said Bass, meaning Double Bass, or Fender Bass meaning electric bass.

 

[mkelly004]

I was gonna say, the mud buckers are not nearly as utilitarian as the P or J sound. T Birds are cool and some Gibby/Epi basses have been rad over the years, but the impression I've always gotten from them is that they were an afterthought behind the guitars.

This coming from someone who does have a Gibson bass (1975 Ripper). I have that, but I also have 2 J's, a Squire Bass VI, and an Fender acoustic bass.

 

[mkelly004]

To say you can't get the sound you need is rediculous. On my Les Paul recorder I have a 3 tone switch plus aa 3 pickup selector (9 variations). then there is 10 front X 10 rear volume for thin to fat sounds (100 variations) times 10 tone control knob (100 x 10 =1000). Now I can use my hands to pick anywhere from near the bridge to the neck which also changes tone. Then I go to amp settings. If I can't replicate what the board or band needs I might as well pack up and go home. I guess that's the difference of being a professional or a weekend warrior.

 

[Gopherbassist]

Gibson has always been a high end, premium brand. At least in their time in the electric instrument business. Working musicians could get their needs met by other brands for cheaper, and they did.

People may not know, but the Les Paul originally failed in the market and was discontinued. It wasn't until big name players started playing them and recording with them that they became successful. I can't think of any Gibson bass that a lot of very skilled, very popular bassists were playing in large numbers.

 

[Count Bassie]

Gibson has always been a high end, premium brand. At least in their time in the electric instrument business. Working musicians could get their needs met by other brands for cheaper, and they did.

People may not know, but the Les Paul originally failed in the market and was discontinued. It wasn't until big name players started playing them and recording with them that they became successful. I can't think of any Gibson bass that a lot of very skilled, very popular bassists were playing in large numbers.

The best and most actually desirable option is not the one you can trust that the general population will pick up on. People tend to need leaders, and they emulate them.

 

[Low End Scum]

To say you can't get the sound you need is rediculous. On my Les Paul recorder I have a 3 tone switch plus aa 3 pickup selector (9 variations). then there is 10 front X 10 rear volume for thin to fat sounds (100 variations) times 10 tone control knob (100 x 10 =1000). Now I can use my hands to pick anywhere from near the bridge to the neck which also changes tone. Then I go to amp settings. If I can't replicate what the board or band needs I might as well pack up and go home. I guess that's the difference of being a professional or a weekend warrior.

If you were meaning to pair this with where you quoted my previous comment, I completely agree. The LP Recording basses and guitars have a ton of options, but also have more versatile pickups. Most bassists I know are definitely in the weekend warrior camp and don't have the money to buy one of those so usually when asked about Gibson/Epiphone basses their mind goes to an EB0 with it's mudbucker in the neck position, or a TBird.

 

[Count Bassie]

If you were meaning to pair this with where you quoted my previous comment, I completely agree. The LP Recording basses and guitars have a ton of options, but also have more versatile pickups. Most bassists I know are definitely in the weekend warrior camp and don't have the money to buy one of those so usually when asked about Gibson/Epiphone basses their mind goes to an EB0 with it's mudbucker in the neck position, or a TBird.

Side note: I played my Classic Pro Thunderbird at a local jam for three tunes. As I walked away a guitar player said "thanks for redeeming the Thunderbird duty me." I said "glad I could help!"
It was punchy and fat, not a dirt stick at all. Good sound- you can hear Leon Williamson from Lynrd Skyrd play his and it's fat and deep...
Just saying.

 

[Low End Scum]

Side note: I played my Classic Pro Thunderbird at a local jam for three tunes. As I walked away a guitar player said "thanks for redeeming the Thunderbird duty me." I said "glad I could help!"
It was punchy and fat, not a dirt stick at all. Good sound- you can hear Leon Williamson from Lynrd Skyrd play his and it's fat and deep...
Just saying.

I quite like the T Bird! I just couldn't find one I could afford in college when I started and then I fell in love with my first J. My guitarist has a T Bird and it's a joy to play, barring the neck dive. Thing's built to be an Olympic level diver.

 

[Count Bassie]

I quite like the T Bird! I just couldn't find one I could afford in college when I started and then I fell in love with my first J. My guitarist has a T Bird and it's a joy to play, barring the neck dive. Thing's built to be an Olympic level diver.

Easy enough to beat neck dive: upper strap button goes at the neck heel joint.
I took it a step further and put the strap across the front of the body over the lower bout. Viola...

 

[Iridescentone]

To me it's pretty simple. With few exceptions, too many Gibson bass models fell into the "niche" catagory by default, either ergonomically, sound-wise, cost-wise, or a combo of the above. Competition from Fender and others simply pushed the less economical, and often quirky, Gibsons to the back burner by comparison.

Bassists didn't have to be "starving musicians" or "weekend warriors" to not choose a Gibson bass. That's an absurd assertion unteathered to reality, as proven by decades of professional musicians of all stripes, and all income levels, both in top recording studios and live onstage. Like it or not, that fact is largely the history of the electric bass.