Why do keyboard players insist on this?

[PauFerro]

First let me say I'm not disagreeing with what keyboard players do, I just don't understand it. Probably because I'm not a sound man, and only do sound to the extent I have to, to survive gigs.

When I play with a keyboard player, he will often insist that I use a two stereo inputs on the mixer for his keyboard. I don't understand why he wants this. He says it will sound better, but I don't understand how. For me, stereo means you can send selected sounds to one speaker, and another set of sounds to a different speaker. If the same sounds are going to each speaker, then where is the advantage of plugging a stereo cord into the same channel on a mixer?

 

[Dogbertday]

Is it a stereo channel? The advantagge for keys to be in stereo is that certain sounds (especially organ sounds) pan back and forth very quickly a la a Leslie amp.

If he's simply using one stereo quarter inch into a line in on channel 6, then he's crazy.

 

[Dogbertday]

Also, if you're bridging your amp and daisy chaining your speakers together your system is in mono and none of this matters.

 

[ggunn]

Also, if you're bridging your amp and daisy chaining your speakers together your system is in mono and none of this matters.

Not necessarily. Some piano sounds mimic micing a real piano at both ends of the soundboard.

 

[Dogbertday]

Yes. But if you play that sampled piano through a mono system you don't get any of that effect and it won't matter if the keyboardist is sending one or two lines.

 

[ggunn]

Yes. But if you play that sampled piano through a mono system you don't get any of that effect and it won't matter if the keyboardist is sending one or two lines.

Of course, but to get the entirety of the sampled sound you'll need to get both sides of the output. You could do it with a Y cable, I guess, but I really don't like to short outputs together.

 

[happycat]

It is fairly common for keyboards to output a mono signal if you plug into the left output only and stereo if you plug both left and right in. So no need for a Y cable. I have that that sometimes I get asked for stereo and other times mono. Personally when I was mixing for my band (small bars) I would mix in mono- much simpler for me since I was also playing keys and bass

 

[3506string]

If the keyboard has a dedicated mono output you are actually degrading the sound quality by combining the left and right outputs.(at least on yamaha keyboards). Because many of these sounds are stereo sampled, when you combine the left and right channels into one you cause phasing issues. The dedicated mono(usually L/mono) output electronically merges the channels into a phase coherent signal. Spoken from a designer at yamaha.

 

[ggunn]

FWIW, when I ran into this the keyboard in question did not have a mono output.

 

[s0c9]

FWIW, when I ran into this the keyboard in question did not have a mono output.

Left OUT is usually mono for keys.. even if not labeled.

 

[s0c9]

It is fairly common for keyboards to output a mono signal if you plug into the left output only and stereo if you plug both left and right in. So no need for a Y cable.

That's incorrect use of a Y cable anyway and will potentially cause issues with the sound and the device.
Y cables are designed to SPLIT a single signal output into 2 identical copies (1 -> 2), NOT MERGE a L/R (or 2 different) signals into one (2 > 1).. you need a mixer for that!

 

[ggunn]

Left OUT is usually mono for keys.. even if not labeled.

That wasn't the case for this instrument. We listened to the two outputs separately (and yes, without plugging connectors into both outputs at the same time) and one was predominately the low keys and the other was the high keys. It was a non issue anyway as we always ran a stereo PA with lots of channels in that band. He always got his stereo feed. I occasionally ran stereo (two amps, two mics, two channels) for my guitar, too.

To the other poster: I have on occasion used a Y cable to combine a stereo signal to mono, but I am not proud of it.

 

[TripleDouble]

Stereo live sound is generally a really bad idea unless you are super-pro or the gig requires it (theatre sound effects, compositional requirements for freaky music). Though the sound of a 40ft wide piano could be cool.

 

[Mystic Michael]

First let me say I'm not disagreeing with what keyboard players do, I just don't understand it. Probably because I'm not a sound man, and only do sound to the extent I have to, to survive gigs.

When I play with a keyboard player, he will often insist that I use a two stereo inputs on the mixer for his keyboard. I don't understand why he wants this. He says it will sound better, but I don't understand how. For me, stereo means you can send selected sounds to one speaker, and another set of sounds to a different speaker. If the same sounds are going to each speaker, then where is the advantage of plugging a stereo cord into the same channel on a mixer?

For one thing, stereo output for keyboards lends a more spacious, "airy", three-dimensional quality to the sound - something that's far more important for keyboards than it is for bass. For another, it allows for the use of stereo sound effects - which typically sound GREAT with keyboards. So strictly speaking, it isn't necessarily the case that a stereo signal will send exactly the same sounds to each speaker or set of speakers, as the various sound modulations will be cycling back and forth from one side to the other.

I suspect that your keyboard player knows exactly what he's doing. You should go with the flow, and stop being a PITA.

MM

 

[ggunn]

Stereo live sound is generally a really bad idea unless you are super-pro or the gig requires it (theatre sound effects, compositional requirements for freaky music).

That's a very common comment and one with which I strongly disagree.

 

[Real Soon]

As a producer who's done a lot of shopping for keyboards for my studio over the years...I can say, basically all electric keyboards, be they stage piano, modeling synthesizer, poly analog synth, groovebox, workstation, what-have-you, they all support mono out via left channel. It's just a given, standard function. If it doesn't say on the patch bay, it says so in the manual.

Some vintage deluxe electric organs might expect to run to a stereo PA if not using their built-in speaker. That's about it for instruments you're going to see more than once a decade in the wild.


And that mono out? Unless it's a seriously primitive rig, it doesn't internally sum stereo to mono, it prevents the signal from being split in the first place. Lots of keyboard delay FX can ping-pong left and right when connected stereo...but when running mono out, the delay is kept mono as well so that half of it isn't lost. Phaser? Good ol' fashioned mono phaser like your favorite pedal rather than a stereo phaser (a la Flying Pan, for another pedal analogy). It doesn't smash the stereo signal into one output, it creates an effect designed for just the one output.


One reason for this is because in recording, unless there's a real reason to go stereo, it's generally preferable for synths to be recorded mono, to make sure the engineer has the full sound as well as the ability to move it wherever needed in the stereo panorama. If everything's recorded stereo, it starts to turn into layers of a wide "virtual mono", which defeats the attempt to create spaces in the mix.


And the other reason is because quite often, stereo out simply isn't available. A proper FOH rig can run both keyboard channels fine, but in an amp-only situation, there's no point in running to two keyboard amps unless they're placed at far ends of the stage, and full enough to still sound connected. Besides, if the keyboardist is playing a synth lead or something, they're gonna want that sound coming from one place usually, save for in some particularly trippy styles.



With that said, if the band's sound is one where synths or other keyboard sounds are integral and front/center, well placed stereo out sound is pretty amazing. I'm not at all opposed to it in practical use, personally. But the original point being what it is, this particular keyboardist needs to go read his manual.

 

[azureblue]

[QUOTE="When I play with a keyboard player, he will often insist that I use a two stereo inputs on the mixer for his keyboard. I don't understand why he wants this. He says it will sound better, but I don't understand how. For me, stereo means you can send selected sounds to one speaker, and another set of sounds to a different speaker. If the same sounds are going to each speaker, then where is the advantage of plugging a stereo cord into the same channel on a mixer?[/QUOTE]

Why do they insist? Because they haven't a clue about PA's and live sound, that's why. I spent 15 minutes trying to explain to a keys player why it was useless to run stereo into a mono PA system. He had the thickness to also insist that I run his L / R into two separate PA channels. not a single stereo input channel. He thought I was puling a fast one one him....

 

[TripleDouble]

That's a very common comment and one with which I strongly disagree.

Fair enough. Other than occasionally panning a signal to balance and/or unclutter a mix, i think it just creates hassle. Generally, If done improperly, by a non-pro, it creates mixes that don't sound good to all audience members, which is the point of live sound reinforcement.

 

[DavC]

I run my keys in stereo ,... but to get a happy medium between the ' space / ambiance ' of the stereo sample and/or stereo fx ... and the more punchy sound of a mono piano ... I put the balance controls on the mixer at about 50% L/R ... instead of 100% hard panned L/R ...

and not many people in the audience are sitting at ' the dead center sweet spot ' where they might notice any stereo fx .. !!?? unless , of course , everyone in the audience is wearing quality headphones !

a real Leslie organ effect ( the Doppler effect ) starts with a mono organ signal ( Hammond B3 ) into a mono preamp ... the into the Leslie amp which has 2 drivers ... 1 bass facing down into a spinning baffle and a tweeter into a double horn that spins in the opposite direction and at a different speed than the bass ... you can mic the top of the Leslie horn left and right to get a stereo effect , ... but it is the same sound going to both mics ..

pianos are sampled with many mics ... all over the whole piano ... sampled at many note ranges and velocities ... on my Krog Kronos you pick how you want to hear that stereo field ... from the point of where the pianist sits ... or from the point of the audience ... and samples include the extra resonance from the strings/soundboard and body of the piano ... along with all the mechanical noises from the keys/hammers/sustain pedal ...

and this goes on and on and on with all the different types of sound samples in a keyboard ... some are mono , some are in true stereo ... but think of the source ... !!! a trumpet is mono , as all wind instruments ... but an ensemble sample would be in stereo .. ! a mini moog is mono ... etc, etc ...

to me ... it's should be what sounds best over the whole room ... and the person playing should have some input into that ... ! some kind of compromise works best ... and I agree that most Pro keys have the Left out as mono ... but most also include stereo and mono samples/sounds .. ! what sounds good at home with your headphones on, isn't necessarily what will sound best thru a keyboard amp or PA .. !!

 

[mikefromchurch]

Ours does it so the sound tech can pan certain songs from one side of the room to the other.