Why have a low c# string?

[knuckle_head]

What equipment do you think you're hearing 17hz through? Looking at your profile you mention Ashdown and EA cabs. Glancing at their sites, neither makes a cab that can reproduce that tone, and it looks like EAs get there after the first harmonic and Ashdown can't touch it until just after the third. It sounds an awful lot like you're not actually hearing a low C#, just the overtones of it (which are higher C#s).

You're still handwaving away reality in favor of "I know this is true because I've convinced myself it's true because I know it's true."

Jauqo needs no defending, but . . . .

There is equipment that does this. I have used it, and demonstrated it in public. I put out a 5 string bass tuned to G# - one string lower than Jauqo's C# - and presented the ACTUAL fundamental loud and proud at NAMM two or three shows back. Bag End facilitated in spades, and I will show a sub this NAMM that delivers flat to 10 Hz.

If you follow the theory that we don't get true fundamental even at standard low E that's fine. Line feed a bass and that limitation goes away. Listen to an iPod and the listening threshold drops to 20 Hz which gives you license to play 10 Hz. Your home entertainment system will let you hear most of it.

Why the hate?

 

[RDUB]

Jauquo, always a pleasure to listen to your pieces. This post sent me back to hear them again.

 

[MR PC]

You're still handwaving away reality in favor of "I know this is true because I've convinced myself it's true because I know it's true."

Like it or not, there is a lot of truth in this statement. The artist here has built his professional reputation on the myth of the "clarity" of these low tones. Conversations like this are necessary for him to be noticed, not unlike the antics a stunt artist uses to get press. No offense intended, it's just plain old entertainment business tactics, IMO. I'm not clear on what the artists point is, other than being noticed over the thousands of other bassists trying to make a name for themselves.

I think you can feel the notes that low. I don't believe it is natural to hear them the in quantity way you listen to the syllables in a human conversation. Better to go to a place in nature like a large body of water and absorb the freqs that way. The ocean is ideal.

 

[smeet]

The original question was "why have a low C# string?". The answer is "because you can get sounds that you can't get otherwise."

This is not about being able to hear a 17Hz sine tone. I don't believe a normal human can do that, although you can certainly feel it. The point is, nobody plays pure sine tones, so it doesn't matter.

On Jauquo's recordings:
1) You can hear the notes.
2) You can identify the pitch of the notes.
3) The lowest C# sounds different (an octave lower) than the C# an octave up.
4) Psychoacoustic illusion or not, you can sense the presence of the fundamental.

Also, bear in mind that "hearing" is the process of sensing sound. It doesn't necessarily have to be done solely through your ears. Feeling vibrations is a part of hearing low notes.

 

[MR PC]

This is not about being able to hear a 17Hz sine tone. I don't believe a normal human can do that

"Normal human being".. So catering to some form of elite over developed superior class of humans is what this is all about then?

Heck, in that case I think the low tones on a pipe organ might have some spiritual meaning after all! Join the flock! Maybe if we listen to the artist's low tones, we will all become good people, just like him!

 

[smeet]

"Normal human being".. So catering to some form of elite over developed superior class of humans is what this is all about then?

Heck, in that case I think the low tones on a pipe organ might have some spiritual meaning after all! Join the flock! Maybe if we listen to the artist's low tones, we will all become good people, just like him!

I trust you actually read the rest of what I typed?

 

[MR PC]

Of course I did!

What I'm getting from that is you feel only certain special people can hear the 17hz, and possibly you along the artist are one of the few who can.

Snake Oil.

 

[knuckle_head]

17Hz can be identified readily enough - whether it's by it's actual fundamental or it's overtones is immaterial. It has musical applications. Don't see the need in the music you play? Don't use it. It is there for those of us who do and want to.

 

[Dave Curran]

17Hz can be identified readily enough - whether it's by it's actual fundamental or it's overtones is immaterial. It has musical applications. Don't see the need in the music you play? Don't use it. It is there for those of us who do and want to.

Well articulated, direct to the point. +1

 

[smeet]

Of course I did!

What I'm getting from that is you feel only certain special people can hear the 17hz, and possibly you along the artist are one of the few who can.

Snake Oil.

Hmm. That's not at all what I typed, so let me be more clear for your benefit, since apparently you were unable to understand it, although I was quite clear and it seems you are being purposefully obtuse.

I can't hear a 17Hz sine tone. Did I say otherwise?

Whether or not you can hear the fundamental directly, you can perceive the pitch of a note by way of the harmonics. The missing fundamental is a well-known psychoacoustic principle. This is why you can perceive the pitch of bass notes even through a speaker that cannot reproduce the fundamentals.

This is music we are discussing, not physics. If somebody likes the sound of the low string, good for them. If they don't like the sound of the low string, good for them. Either way, it produces a sound that is different from a higher-pitched string, whether or not you can actually hear the fundamental.

The most important part here is that "pitch" is a feature of perception, created by your brain. It is completely different than "frequency", which is a physical phenomenon. That is why we can perceive pitches that correspond to frequencies that are not actually present (or in the current case, that are too low in frequency for our ears to actually pick up).

 

[poit57]

I wasn't sure what the human hearing range was defined as. Just a quick internet search shows that, depending on the source of the study, the low limit has been defined as 15, 16 or 20 Hz, so evidently some scientists do accept that a human can hear as low as 17 Hz for the low C# in question.

Regardless of that, as Smeet pointed out, a person can feel vibrations at lower frequencies that what we can hear with our ears, and thus interpret that as part of the music. Why then should that stop an artist from using that note in their compositions?

 

[Smooth_bass88]

If you can't hear a low C# than that's you're problem. Juaqo makes it work just fine. Otherwise, don't make a big frikkn deal out of it. Move along...

 

[Dave Curran]

For what it's worth, I heard the 17hz wave in a pair of samson sr850's. Other than CNBC being on in the background, there was no other noticeable noise. I had to concentrate and look for the vibration. 17hz is only 17 oscillations per second (think of rpm's, and listen for a sound moving very slow, like a bad spot on your tire making a thump as your driving through the neighborhood.)

I would not be able to identify this sound with any appreciable background noise. I however hear the youtube recordings just fine, as I hear all the lovely overtones(octaves) that are created by using a stringed instrument. I then perceive the fundamental in my mind to correlate with the overtones I easily hear. (root note) I do this with headphones. With a properly tuned sub I can way more easily feel the root, but only hear the overtones, not that clean wobble you get from accurate headphones.

 

[Solarmist]

For those who don't know me, I am a very nice and down to earth person but it get's a little tiresome when kat's with no hands on experience always trying to knock you down.

Instead of making a fuss about nothing it would be kool if they just took a chill pill becasue they get no points from me, I'm going to continue to forge ahead and do what I'm in this life time here to do.

I'm not going to rain on your parade, but have you ever read up in the Amps/Cabs forum by people like Greenboy or Bill Fitzmaurice what it takes cab wise to reproduce any fundamental below your B string?

Weren't you also the guy who (in another thread) said you used a .105 for low B as well?

No offence meant.

 

[Dave W]

Who care if it's overtones? You can still hear the notes.

 

[MR PC]

The most important part here is that "pitch" is a feature of perception, created by your brain. It is completely different than "frequency", which is a physical phenomenon. That is why we can perceive pitches that correspond to frequencies that are not actually present (or in the current case, that are too low in frequency for our ears to actually pick up).

Fair enough, true, and a very nice explanation!

If you can't hear a low C# than that's you're problem. Juaqo makes it work just fine. Otherwise, don't make a big frikkn deal out of it. Move along...

LOL! Why am I seeing the cartoon cop from Southpark when I read this? Hmm.. me thinks spelling "your" as "you're" is a bit of a slip!

Why even listen to the man if it isn't a big deal..seems to me he is making a really big deal out of it himself! All of us don't take his word on blind faith.

Point me to a piece of music that isn't just a hi fi lab experiment with a rock and roll fusion veneer. I haven't heard anything important musically up to this time. Just because it makes nether regions of the human body let loose or scramble the central nervous system doesn't make it good music..or does it?

 

[fnordlyone]

Where does one feel the lower hz? Perhaps as vibrations in the old ear drum? Ever study human sight? Our brain is where we see/hear things after filtering stimuli through our senses. As Nietzsche noted (paraphrase): "We are all greater artists than we realize." Or, "Who is the master who makes the grass green?" --Robert Anton Wilson

Having a bunch of lab coats get responses from "random" people will give one an average hearing range mathematically. One shouldn't imagine that this is totally "scientific," because all the data is based on humans' perceptions of sound. When one extrapolates and assumes that such studies PROVE that any particular person cannot or can "hear" something… Well, that's just dumb.

f n o r d !

 

[JimmyM]

Pretty clearly. Next time try not to shoot your mouth off.

Jauqo can shoot off whatever the hell he wants. Calm down.

 

[JimmyM]

LOL! Why am I seeing the cartoon cop from Southpark when I read this? Hmm.. me thinks spelling "your" as "you're" is a bit of a slip!

Why even listen to the man if it isn't a big deal..seems to me he is making a really big deal out of it himself! All of us don't take his word on blind faith.

Point me to a piece of music that isn't just a hi fi lab experiment with a rock and roll fusion veneer. I haven't heard anything important musically up to this time. Just because it makes nether regions of the human body let loose or scramble the central nervous system doesn't make it good music..or does it?

That's a matter of opinion, isn't it? If you don't like it, don't buy it. But I've heard Jauqo's stuff and I like it, and I can hear his low C# just fine, and whether it's harmonics or fundamental I'm hearing is completely and totally moot to me. People tell me I can't play a 5 string in an Ampeg 810 because it doesn't go down to 31hz, and I hear the low B plain as day and it easily sounds different than the B an octave up. Why? I don't care why. All I know is it's there.

And spelling flames are kind of lame, dude.

 

[fnordlyone]

Jauqo can shoot off whatever the hell he wants. Calm down.

Amen!