Why have a nice rig just to be run direct?

[Downunderwonder]

Maybe the subs rattle the stage right under the bass rig, but yeah, sounds like just a bogus excuse.

You can only close mic bass cabinets, nobody is going to mic both, so first you better pick one cab you like best.

My mic is AKG P2, I set it up and say "try this". I explain I don't run a lot of EQ in my sound and the mic has very flat response. It has a little extra brightness going by the response chart but it hasn't bothered me at all. You can give a good line on your weird bass and how you got it all smoothed out through amp and cab so he's got less to do to get it mixed.

The TB'er who discovered the P2 is less polite, either he lies about having his own DI or he whips the DI lead out and puts it in his P2 which is quick mounted on a customised Z clamp in mere seconds while soundguy is walking back. Nobody calls him out on it.

I'd be prepared never to work again in that town if that's how you operate. I tell the story to illustrate that the mic works with no issues when you have a decently usable sound coming off your rig.

 

[s4001]

I guess it just makes me think that when a sound guy runs me direct it basically turns my expensive Orange cabinets into overpriced stage monitors.

Exactly. I gave up on big rigs years ago. I've got a combo I like, a Sansamp and the rest is the soundguy's job. Even in thousand-odd seat venues, I just bring a combo.

 

[smeet]

It's a difficult situation, because you like the color your cabinet gives to the sound, but that may not get to the FOH. That's one big reason I use a fEARful cabinet. It will never be exact, but the sound I get out of my cabinet has a good chance of being pretty close to what comes out of the PA. Yes, a PA-style cab will force you to EQ your signal in non-traditional ways, but that's because the cabinet is contributing much less color to your sound.

 

[BurningSkies]

Yes, your expensive rig turns into a glorified monitor when you have really loud PA support.

However, I have a post EQ option on my amp's DI, so whatever I dialed into the amp gets sent to the board. So all is not lost. Unless the sound guy tries to EQ my EQ, then it gets weird and messy. A good chat is in order.

P.S.--my sound engineers have been additionally mic'ing my cab a lot more these days than they used to, FWIW.

I'm ok with my rig being a 'glorified monitor' mostly because its important to me what I sound like to me, but secondly because my band enjoys all the glory a real bass rig provides to THEM too. Now a fair percentage of our gigs are with smaller PA systems and my 'glorified monitor' also often covers the room. It sounds great to people out front, or at least they say it does. Regularly and often. On the back side of that, my rig is also a studio grade tube DI, so what I am hearing through my 'glorified monitor' is also being sent to the house on bigger gigs (and having heard that FROM the house when sharing my backline) and sounds amazing out front too.

This thread is awesome every time it comes up. About once a week.

 

[Floridabwoy]

Yeah... A agree... let a Countryman... and take some time dialing your spector though your bands PA to see what sounds good... THEN.... tweak your amp.

 

[therhodeo]

Anyone else ever been asked for a pre-effects DI?

Best part the reasoning given was "because thats how you're supposed to do it."

 

[BurningSkies]

Anyone else ever been asked for a pre-effects DI?

Best part the reasoning given was "because thats how you're supposed to do it."

That's a soundguy who doesn't want to have to deal with the tone of your effects.

 

[JimmyM]

Anyone else ever been asked for a pre-effects DI?

Best part the reasoning given was "because thats how you're supposed to do it."

Had a guy who tried that about a month ago. Then he saw I brought a REDDI and abandoned the idea. If he hadn't, though, there's no way in hell I'd have gone along with it.

BTW, he sucked.

 

[BZadlo]

My amp and cabinet make a sound that gets me off on stage. If the sound guy feels that he is unable to somewhat accurately reproduce that sound (through the PA) with a mic, then DI it is. The fewer open mics on a small, loud stage, the better.
I think that the most important thing is energy. That's what the audience responds to. I like to take the path of least resistance towards that.

 

[ThisBass]

I'm sure this has been covered countless times on TB, but it happened to me this past Saturday and got me thinking.
Like most bassists, I spend a ton of money on my rig, amps and cabs in particular. My main rig is a Spector Euro 4 LX through a pedal board, into an Orange TB1000 into an Orange OBC 410 and OBC 115.

I live in Austin, so most of the venues have a good sound system, and I am very fortunate to be mic'd most of the time. However, at a gig Saturday the sound man was adoment about running me direct. I begged him to even use an sm57 on my rig (not my first choice, but they definitely work for bass), as we are a 3 piece so if the venue doens't have a bass specific mic, they usually have at least an extra 57 for a second guitar. He explained to me that the subs were under the stage, so mic'ing my cab would be bad because it would somehow make my tone pretty inaudible. I gave in and said OK. Bear in mind I'm no sound guy, but my thought process is that I dial in a tone on my bass and head based on the sound that comes out of my cabinets. My concern is that when you isolate one thing without the other (in other words taking a direct signal from a DI box before the bass goes into the head, or even taking a DI from the head itself leaves out a major variable used to dial in the sound: The cabs, and possibly the head too).

After the show, the sound guy told me how treble heavy my tone was, and that it sounded muffled, so he had to dial my highs back a ton. I knew this, as Spectors have that very distinctive, treble and mid heavy tone, especially by themselves, so I always compensate for that by cutting the treble on my Orange head and get my overall sound from a combination of the bass, head and cabs. It makes for an even balance. It bummed me out to know that all of the stuff I thought the audience was hearing me do was probably not even audible. I guess it just makes me think that when a sound guy runs me direct it basically turns my expensive Orange cabinets into overpriced stage monitors.

So now that I've written a novel, my question is what do you guys do to compensate and prepare for situations like this? My first inclination is to buy a beta 52 and when a soundman asks me where my DI is to point to the mic. But if I run into an issue like that again, is there a specific Mic I can use that is good for capturing live bass tone, or should I invest in an EQable DI? It just really seems odd to spend all that money on getting a good bass tone with your entire rig to have a sound guy only use part of the equation when it matters most (when people here it). Thanks guys!

I have got a 70s SVT. I prefer a passive DI which is linked daisy chaining into the SVT power amp output.
However the sound of the cab is not on PA but I don't worry about that. It is pretty nice to have on PA the legendary growl of the SVT.

 

[alexclaber]

One reason I developed the original Barefaced design was so that I could DI into a nice PA and get pretty much the same sound out front as from my cab.

Also, I think musicians sometimes underestimate how interactive playing music is, and how what you're hearing from your cab affects how you play - and how the rest of your band plays. A band that can hear each other just right, not just in terms of the notes but the actual tone and feel of the music that each instrument is creating, will make better music!

 

[HolmeBass]

BTW, he sucked.

That's the thing: the sound guys who create these problems all basically suck at their job.

I say this in every one of these threads: the best sound engineers I've worked with took what I gave them, a post-EQ DI from my amp, asked me if it sounded ok if I ever used additional monitors, and made it sound fantastic on stage and out front. And they made it look pretty easy to. No dogma, no BS rules, no drama. They just knew what they were doing.

 

[modulusman]

Two Fingers, I get what you are saying but why is it that everytime I see any big band play anywhere the bass is ALWAYS mic'd? No matter what room, anytime I see a touring band where the sound guy is actually paid to give good sound to a specific band, the bass is mic'd. It's like you said, running a DI seems to be the lazy sound man's approach to bass. Or the one that doens't get paid enough to care about the 5 bands bass tone he runs every night.

They are probably running a DI and a mic. If the bass players onstage tone sounds like crap at FOH they will just turn the mic channel down and use the DI channel. Sometimes they will blend both channels.

 

[Joe Louvar]

So now that I've written a novel, my question is what do you guys do to compensate and prepare for situations like this? My first inclination is to buy a beta 52 and when a soundman asks me where my DI is to point to the mic. But if I run into an issue like that again, is there a specific Mic I can use that is good for capturing live bass tone, or should I invest in an EQable DI? !

I recommend both a good DI box and a mic. IMO, the Beta 52 isn't a good bass cab mic - some good mic's for bass cabs are the MD421, M88, NT3, RE20, etc, and the REDDI, Radial J48, and Countryman 85 are nice DI boxes.

 

[ThisBass]

That's the thing: the sound guys who create these problems all basically suck at their job.

I say this in every one of these threads: the best sound engineers I've worked with took what I gave them, a post-EQ DI from my amp, asked me if it sounded ok if I ever used additional monitors, and made it sound fantastic on stage and out front. And they made it look pretty easy to. No dogma, no BS rules, no drama. They just knew what they were doing.

I never had problems at all with sound guys during the last 25 years or so.
In my opinion all the sound engineers are people you can talk to. I tell them my concept of how to take the signal for FOH and tell them why I want it to do it like that. I tell them that my full range cab sounds very close to a PA and so I try to push this vintage SVT sound on PA.
In general the sound engineers let my signal substantially flat on FOH mix. Besides there some little correction at the EQ of FOH is nothing to talk home about.

 

[P-oddz]

Related to sound guys not knowing what they are doing...
I just played a show this weekend where I was setting up (Orange AD200B and OBC410) and the sound guy comes over by me with an open line and says "where is the bass setting up"?
(Mind you, I have my bass in my hand and I'm plugging into my pedal board)

I say to him "right here".

He replies with "An Orange bass rig? Hmmm...." obviously looking flummoxed and lost at what to do next.

I tell him, I don't have an out on my head and he gives me a COMPLETELY confused look. I tell him no problem, I've got a nice mic and my own mic clamp (Heil PR40 and Z Bar) and I'll take care of it. He debates his options for like 5 seconds and goes "yeah, I guess we'll just go with your mic".

Damn right you will.

 

[fastplant]

asked me if it sounded ok

Wow, in my 20+ years of playing I think I've been asked maybe once or twice by the sound guy if I liked what he was doing with my bass sound. Most are so disgruntled that I'm not sure why they're a sound guy at all.

What I usually do is give them the DI off the back of my amp and then go out front of the PA while doing sound check and adjust my EQ until it sounds good out front. I really don't trust any sound guy at a bar. There's a reason they're not a touring sound guy. (Caveat being that there are some decent local sound guys, but they are very few and far between).

 

[ThisBass]

IMO micing is not the concept that fits every situation on stage.
Regardless of the sound engineer's experience. Sometimes there are awful room modes on stage, especially on small ones. In this case it wouldn't be a very good idea to take the bass signal by mic.

 

[Timi]

This is why I got a Sansamp and a micro amp for playing live, sold my big tube amp to fund a B15n for the studio.

 

[joelb79]

Why not use a VTBass DI, Radial Tonebone, or a Zoom B3 and a powered monitor? That way you can send the poor sound guy what you think you should sound like, hear what you think you should sound like and then everybody can be happy. Seems logical to me (and the direction I would like to head myself).