Did you talk to the soundman before the show at sound check?
If it was not then it was not only soundmans' fault.
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Why have a nice rig just to be run direct?
- Thread starter mancefine
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Did you talk to the soundman before the show at sound check?
If it was not then it was not only soundmans' fault.
Yea, because how was the sound man supposed to know that the nice fat thick sound you were getting on stage was what you expected to hear FOH. It was obvious to him that you prefer a thin trebly sound. I mean, he couldn't be bothered to ask, could he???
This reminds me of something else...
There was a live Eric Clapton album from the late '70s or early '80s on which his tone was really, really thin, even considering his famous switch from Gibson to Fender around 1970. I read a review which went into considerable depth pondering the profound metaphysical implications of this further change.
Then, years later, I read an interview with Clapton in which he was asked about his tone on this particular album, and what it represented. Clapton simply replied that the sound company apparently made a mistake with mic placement and that he hated his sound on that album!
It isn't true that you lose the tweeter, at least in my experience. The cab I usually mic is a 410 with a tweeter, and I can always hear the tweeter coming through the mic.
Yea, because how was the sound man supposed to know that the nice fat thick sound you were getting on stage was what you expected to hear FOH. It was obvious to him that you prefer a thin trebly sound. I mean, he couldn't be bothered to ask, could he???
One of the reasons it might have been all trebly was because the bass player was too loud onstage. If all the soundman is hearing is a wall of mud he may have tried to add some definition with the board. If it was a board mix then what you would hear the most is what was being boosted on the channel strip.
Thisbass is correct, as the tone from the output jack is the unadulterated sound of the bass before any processing/sound altering (which would include the sound of any speakers) is done to this signal, but he also recognizes that this may NOT be the sound we want to have represented.
BurningSkies
CRAZY BALDHEAD
- Feb 20, 2005
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We understand what the term accurate means. You're not getting any of the context of the conversation. If the FOH isn't REPRODUCING the END PRODUCT tone of what the bassist is hearing from the speakers, he isn't providing accurate sound reinforcement. If the bassist depends upon the amp, any effects and/or the cabinet to be an integral part of tone shaping for his end sound, and you're missing any of those components in what you're giving the bassist out front, its not accurate. This doesn't need to devolve into a discussion about what speakers and amps do to a bass' tone, we KNOW what they do and how they do it.
The point of this exercise is to get the sound that you and your band find necessary for your creative and expressive endeavor to the people who are in front of the PA within the limitations of the actual room. It has nothing to do with trying to go as far upstream as possible.
I've seen this happen a few times. The 'suck button' for the opening act and then the headliner comes on and all of a sudden the sound comes alive. My band opened for a national act and their supporting act last year. With this in mind we brought in our own soundman for that gig and it really worked out well. Wasn't using a top of the line rig or anything but I was mic'ed and had the DI running. Sounded real nice.
How about we accept that the German interpretation of "accurate" sends the discussion into left field and we leave it there to rot?
All the amp and cab tone which delights us bassists should be heard. There is only one way that can be done with today's technology for any budget. Afaik no cab sim equals the real thing yet. A $100 mic gets you real deal tone.
The downside of doing that is one more mic feeding stage bleed into the mix. Boohoo. The signal to noise ratio on close mic bass must be so much better than the vocal mics as to be virtually inconsequential.
If there is feedback of bass through my mic there is a skull crushing amount of bass in the monitors, not my fault. I can't believe that's a serious concern.
If your cab is transparent 3 way, you can speaker DI with no tone loss.
Mic wins for everything else.
All the amp and cab tone which delights us bassists should be heard. There is only one way that can be done with today's technology for any budget. Afaik no cab sim equals the real thing yet. A $100 mic gets you real deal tone.
The downside of doing that is one more mic feeding stage bleed into the mix. Boohoo. The signal to noise ratio on close mic bass must be so much better than the vocal mics as to be virtually inconsequential.
If there is feedback of bass through my mic there is a skull crushing amount of bass in the monitors, not my fault. I can't believe that's a serious concern.
If your cab is transparent 3 way, you can speaker DI with no tone loss.
Mic wins for everything else.
Yeah but it is the soundmans fault that he didn't make the band sound like a** just to make the bass player happy.
A bit OT now, but ...
Maybe I've been lucky but I have never come across a sound guy who intentionally tried to do a bad job, or one I couldn't have a civilized conversation with. Approach with a smile and introduce yourself and people are normally friendly, albeit sometimes perhaps slightly grumpy because time is short. Offer to help with the setup if you have time to spare; even if it's turned down I think it will make a person more positive in return.
All I've met have seemed quite intent on doing their job. That some have not been at all good at it is a different matter.
I've got no argument whatsoever with the "the cabinet is part of my instrument sound" position, since most bass cabs are far from flat and uncoloured, and people pick one with a sound they like and adjust the bass/amp/effect/cab setup to sound best to them standing next to it.
Just don't then assume that putting a mic in front of it -- carefully placed or not -- means it will sound like that out front.
It can do given all sorts of provisos (good soundman, enough setup time, good mic on isolating mount, good placement with multiple drivers, good stage, low bleed/cancellation with FOH), but any of these not being the case means it very often doesn't.
If you can get as good a sound to your ears on-stage using whatever electronic gizmos are needed to do this (amp simulator -- or amp! -- cabinet simulator, distortion...), DI and and a flat monitor, the odds are *much* higher that it will sound close to your "perfect sound" out front.
Even if you think this setup doesn't sound as good to you on stage as a good old-fashioned Ampeg (or whatever) cabinet and mic (choose your favourite), a simulator+DI solution can still sound better (i.e. closer to what you really want it to sound like) out front.
Not always, but very often -- just look at what's needed to get FOH sound the same as your ideal on-stage sound with a cab + mic, and work out the odds.
Or feel free to take the view that it's your job as a musician to just get the sound you want on stage and it's the soundman's problem to replicate this out front, and his fault if it doesn't work very well. Then when the audience complains (or you listen to a recording) you can blame him, so you'll be happy even if nobody else is...
I prefer an option that maximises the chance of *everyone* being happy, regardless of which end of the jack lead I'm standing at
As you said, it may have been the board recording and the sound out front may have been full as a bull.Yeah but it is the soundmans fault that he didn't make the band sound like a** just to make the bass player happy.
I always try to have a beer with the FOH-guy before the concert. In this 10 minutes I discuss how I want my sound. I try to get it miced and over the DI-Out of my GBE 1200, so the tech has to use two channels.
In this way the tech has two opinions of sound: My stage-sound which I love, and a "flat" DI-sound. Mixed together I have my slight overdriven sound, the FOH is welcome if to cut low end from it. Low end comes mostly from the DI-channel. Its not a lot of work to get a good sound from this two channels.
I made very good experiences using this 2-channel - system -and a killer sound. And I made good experiences with talking to the sound guy before the gig.
In this way the tech has two opinions of sound: My stage-sound which I love, and a "flat" DI-sound. Mixed together I have my slight overdriven sound, the FOH is welcome if to cut low end from it. Low end comes mostly from the DI-channel. Its not a lot of work to get a good sound from this two channels.
I made very good experiences using this 2-channel - system -and a killer sound. And I made good experiences with talking to the sound guy before the gig.
Talking to the sound guy is always a good idea. Then all you have to do is hope that he can deliver your "killer sound" without being able to read your mind or listen through your ears...
Interesting...
In my experience, this translates as a rookie mistake: cornering the (legitimately) busy sound man and bothering him with your petty demands... and giving the signal that you don't trust him to see the big picture and mix the entire band well.
But congratulations if you've made this work for you.
I know, I know... the suck button thing is just something I've noticed in concert settings. There's always a ton of variables involved so just as a joke my friends and I always refer to it as the suck button or like 'he forgot to switch it from AM to FM'.
Totally agree with your statement above. Personally I have no qualms about going DI. I'd rather go with whatever the soundguy/girl is most comfortable with and that's what I tell them. Better chance of having a good band sound out front where it counts the most. Most I ever deal with are well used to the rooms they work in and do a great job. In the smaller venues/bars crazy stage volume turns out to be most bands own worst enemy in my opinion.
We're talking about big stages with only perhaps a wall for a boundary to colour the player's perception of the cab tone. Itty bitty stages with low ceilings need not apply for FOH support.I've got no argument whatsoever with the "the cabinet is part of my instrument sound" position, since most bass cabs are far from flat and uncoloured, and people pick one with a sound they like and adjust the bass/amp/effect/cab setup to sound best to them standing next to it.
Just don't then assume that putting a mic in front of it -- carefully placed or not -- means it will sound like that out front.
It can do given all sorts of provisos (good soundman, enough setup time, good mic on isolating mount, good placement with multiple drivers, good stage, low bleed/cancellation with FOH), but any of these not being the case means it very often doesn't.
If you can get as good a sound to your ears on-stage using whatever electronic gizmos are needed to do this (amp simulator -- or amp! -- cabinet simulator, distortion...), DI and and a flat monitor, the odds are *much* higher that it will sound close to your "perfect sound" out front.
Even if you think this setup doesn't sound as good to you on stage as a good old-fashioned Ampeg (or whatever) cabinet and mic (choose your favourite), a simulator+DI solution can still sound better (i.e. closer to what you really want it to sound like) out front.
Not always, but very often -- just look at what's needed to get FOH sound the same as your ideal on-stage sound with a cab + mic, and work out the odds.
Or feel free to take the view that it's your job as a musician to just get the sound you want on stage and it's the soundman's problem to replicate this out front, and his fault if it doesn't work very well. Then when the audience complains (or you listen to a recording) you can blame him, so you'll be happy even if nobody else is...
I prefer an option that maximises the chance of *everyone* being happy, regardless of which end of the jack lead I'm standing at
I have no problem believing Jimmy gets his cab sound coming out at FOH, simply by mic'ing his cab into a well tuned system with minimal extra eq required.
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