Why have a nice rig just to be run direct?

[Marcus Willett]

I'd love to see how some of these folks who insist on using a mic would feel if they mixed 5 bands a night, 3 nights a week for a month.

I'd feel the same as Jimmy. If that's your gig, that's your gig. Don't take it then bitch about being asked to do the gig. A LOT of my time is eaten up by soundmen doing things that have nothing to do with me. And yeah that's part of the gig, so you suck it up and do your job.

 

[lfmn16]

I flat-out reject the notion that your problem was caused by being too loud. I've played too loud before and the soundman had no problem at all getting the sound I like in the PA anyway. I've also not played very loud at all and had a problem getting the sound I like in the PA. Here's a for-instance...

On a cruise ship setting up for a show with Bowzer once. For those who are unfamiliar with Bowzer, you do not play loud on his shows or he will make you hate life. The guitarist goes out in the FOH to listen. He says to me, "The bass sounds like it's coming out of a transistor radio from the 60's." I go out and listen and he's right.

The soundman says, "It's been my experience that the bass players on here want a sound without a lot of low end but with bright treble and pushed high mids."

I said, "Well I'm not one of them. That's fine for jazz guys I suppose, but my sound is more about lows from about 60 hz up and low mids around 100-200 with not a lot of treble at all and just enough high mids to give a little definition." To his credit, he dialed it up that way and it sounded great.

So I do believe that in your case there was editorializing going on, and I seriously doubt it had anything to do with your volume level.

It was actually bass71 that had the problem, and you are correct, modulusman, with no basis at all for his opinion, determined that it could have been a volume issue.

I'm not saying that the bass player is never wrong, but this is a BASS forum, not a soundman forum and I think that we could give our fellow bass players the benefit of the doubt.

I think that it boils down to this - Do you think it's the soundman's job to produce the sound the band wants to hear, or is it his job to decide how the band should sound?

 

[Jeff Scott]

I think that it boils down to this - Do you think it's the soundman's job to produce the sound the band wants to hear, or is it his job to decide how the band should sound?

I want the former, within whatever technical abilities and limitations the droid has at hand to work with. If the band sounds great with no reinforcement (discounting vocals, for example) then that is what the droid should strive for, ideally.

 

[ThisBass]

I'm not saying that the bass player is never wrong, but this is a BASS forum, not a soundman forum and I think that we could give our fellow bass players the benefit of the doubt.

If an all tube amp farts out due to a technical malfunction which is inside the amp so it is necessary to open the amp and look inside what's going wrong with it.
If it is impossible to look inside (like in Bass Forum) so it is impossible to point out a reliable diagnostic.
There is no way to give a brief benefit to the tubes or transformers or resistance or capacitors unless you can't keep an eye inside the amp to yourself.

 

[JimmyM]

Sorry lfnm, for some reason I thought it was you.

This, your last post was exactly right on. And that's exactly why I rejected the notion that he was playing too loud. Fact is, nobody knows why, but out of all the reasons floated, the least believable is that he was playing too loud.

 

[T-MOST]

I like to hear the amp behind me rather than "in ears" if posible.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

Recordings both video and audio (board or otherwise) are tough. You mix for the room, not for a tape, and video recorders have awful mics that distort easily and rob the lows. Most 'audience grade' mics and recorders are pretty much the same.

I've heard both board tapes and separate feed radio recordings of shows I've lit and also heard live. Big difference between a dedicated audio recording done in a truck and a cam mic.

 

[TheRealKong]

Talking to the sound guy is always a good idea. Then all you have to do is hope that he can deliver your "killer sound" without being able to read your mind or listen through your ears...

Oh, I make sure. FOH-guys hate me and my wireless when I appear at the mixer unit during soundcheck.

BTW we work a lot with techs that know the band, me and my needs. Aaaah, lets say, my wishes.

I discussed a lot in different musicians boards with so-called techs, that told me: "OK, there will be a cable and a mike, but the sound does come from the DI". No, it does not! My sound guys do as I want.

I have a friend who has recordet some of our gigs with a pro video equipment. This is his hobby, he does it for about 20 years. His equipment is so good, the sound of his vids is much better than the sound of a Zoom H4n connected to the mixer. And I like the sound of the H4n.

On both recordings the sound of my bass is just like I want it. If the FOH would only use the DI, there wouldn't be any overdriven sound, at least on the recordings direct from the mixer.

 

[Korladis]

There are a very lot of synonyms possible for translation of accurate.
All of the synonyms tell the same. Accurate and all it's possible synonyms means the opposite of alteration.
Coloring a signal means altering a signal. No altering at all means no coloring at all which then means highly accurate.

However a highly accurate signal does not automatically fit to the sonic conditions on stage or front of house.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

[BurningSkies]

I've heard both board tapes and separate feed radio recordings of shows I've lit and also heard live. Big difference between a dedicated audio recording done in a truck and a cam mic.

Exactly. I've had a 'audio truck' situation once, and it was a pleasure (minus the mix which was a bit funky, given the situation). I've also had the pleasure of having a dedicated multitrack recording that incorporated board sends, mics on stage and in room that sounded pretty fantastic. Often times board tapes are a terrible way to hear what is actually happening...a camera mic you can at least tell the bass is distorting the mic like a trainwreck. Is that too loud? Not necessarily for the given band. There's no cookie cutter definition of 'too loud' or 'loud enough'. Different bands, different genres, etc.

 

[Korladis]

We understand what the term accurate means. You're not getting any of the context of the conversation. If the FOH isn't REPRODUCING the END PRODUCT tone of what the bassist is hearing from the speakers, he isn't providing accurate sound reinforcement. If the bassist depends upon the amp, any effects and/or the cabinet to be an integral part of tone shaping for his end sound, and you're missing any of those components in what you're giving the bassist out front, its not accurate. This doesn't need to devolve into a discussion about what speakers and amps do to a bass' tone, we KNOW what they do and how they do it.

The point of this exercise is to get the sound that you and your band find necessary for your creative and expressive endeavor to the people who are in front of the PA within the limitations of the actual room. It has nothing to do with trying to go as far upstream as possible.

Thank you, BurningSkies. That's what I was trying to say.

Sure, maybe a DI off my bass is accurate as far as the bass itself goes.... but I consider the bass to only be half my instrument, if even that. Without anything picking up the sound of the amp, it's a highly inaccurate representation of my instrument, as I consider my amp and speaker cab to be part of that instrument.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

LOL!
In this 1/2 hour youtube interview Rupert Neve uses the term accuracy several times.

 

[TheRealKong]

Interesting...
In my experience, this translates as a rookie mistake: cornering the (legitimately) busy sound man and bothering him with your petty demands... and giving the signal that you don't trust him to see the big picture and mix the entire band well.
But congratulations if you've made this work for you.

Maybe in your world. My experience says, that a sound guy likes to talk gear, as any bassman that I know does. And they are not "that" busy to have no 10 Minutes to have a beer. I recommend rookies to get in touch with the tech to give him an idea of the sound they want to have through FOH.

You don't want to call a bassman that celebrates his 36th anniversary on stage next year a rookie, do you?

I had more than 1.700 gigs during the years. And I know what is possible to get my sound.

 

[TheRealKong]

Me too. Unfortunately a lot of sound men aren't musicians and a lot of musicians don't understand PA, leading to such battles where nobody goes home happy.

Life would be a lot easier if more people understood the other guy's point of view ;-)

So why not tralking to the FOH-guy before the soundcheck?

 

[dougjwray]

Maybe in your world. My experience says, that a sound guy likes to talk gear, as any bassman that I know does. And they are not "that" busy to have no 10 Minutes to have a beer. I recommend rookies to get in touch with the tech to give him an idea of the sound they want to have through FOH.

You don't want to call a bassman that celebrates his 36th anniversary on stage next year a rookie, do you?

I had more than 1.700 gigs during the years. And I know what is possible to get my sound.

We have comparable mileage. I haven't totaled up the gigs, but I started gigging around 1974, and have been going steadily since 1977. I respect your approach... I've just had a different experience. I did have years on the road with the same guy running the sound, and had a chance then to have a dialog (obviously). I've also been in lots of nice concert situations where the sound guys will ask you about your preferences. But I also put in years of big city (New York City and Boston) shows where whatever act I was with was one of four or five on the bill, you were tripping over the previous band as they were tearing down and you were trying to set up, and the house sound guy was on the phone or having a sandwich somewhere else during that time. Most of the festivals and TV and radio that I've done have been the same way. So... on further thought, I guess it does vary...
Peace

 

[Korladis]

How about we accept that the German interpretation of "accurate" sends the discussion into left field and we leave it there to rot?

All the amp and cab tone which delights us bassists should be heard. There is only one way that can be done with today's technology for any budget. Afaik no cab sim equals the real thing yet. A $100 mic gets you real deal tone.

The downside of doing that is one more mic feeding stage bleed into the mix. Boohoo. The signal to noise ratio on close mic bass must be so much better than the vocal mics as to be virtually inconsequential.

If there is feedback of bass through my mic there is a skull crushing amount of bass in the monitors, not my fault. I can't believe that's a serious concern.

If your cab is transparent 3 way, you can speaker DI with no tone loss.

Mic wins for everything else.

Yeah, I never got the bleed complaint. It wouldn't be any more a problem with the bass than with the guitar. I don't see why soundguys think it's a problem... they're going to highpass me at 60hz anyway.

Now I have my own microphone, though, so I can just start setting it up in front of the cab.

 

[TheRealKong]

We have comparable mileage. I haven't totaled up the gigs, but I started gigging around 1974, and have been going steadily since 1977. I respect your approach... I've just had a different experience. I did have years on the road with the same guy running the sound, and had a chance then to have a dialog (obviously). I've also been in lots of nice concert situations where the sound guys will ask you about your preferences. But I also put in years of big city (New York City and Boston) shows where whatever act I was with was one of four or five on the bill, you were tripping over the previous band as they were tearing down and you were trying to set up, and the house sound guy was on the phone or having a sandwich somewhere else during that time. Most of the festivals and TV and radio that I've done have been the same way. So... on further thought, I guess it does vary...
Peace

OK, no offense. Just lets keep peace in the old year and transport it into the new year.

When we do a complete evening the FOH-guy does not leave before anything is fixed and the sound is OK, no matter what venue. We pay the guy for this, and he gets anything to make him feel comfy. No need to leave for a sandwitch.

Anyway, a tech is not payed for answering his phone. If there's no tech, there is no soundcheck. I play in three bands, and only in one band we have our own FOH and tech. The other two bands do bigger venues with local or rented FOH +tech.

When we support bigger acts on tours, we either bring our own tech or "make friends" with the tech of the headliner. This helps a lot.

When we go to an unknown venue, we send our tech rider that says, that we have to talk to the local FOH-guy because we want to make sure about the bands needs. Do this in a relaxed way (the beer...), and you and the tech will part as friends.

The problem I see is, that techs in our age do no longer work for live music. So you have to "make friends" with a new local FOH-guy every some years. And this guy is young and has "a new" opinion of a "good sound".

I noticed the last years that FOH - guys tend to give more low end to the sound. Maybe 10 years ago I had to do a lots of talking to get a decent "BASS"-sound from FOH.

Not so much experienced tech-guys in the venues we use to play, especially this year. It was a drag.

Many techs say: "Awww, musicians.... No idea what to do when it comes to FOH." The same words I heared from musicians vice versa. But we have to work together to make the audience enjoy the concert. They payed for that.

I am a strong believer in friendly talking, making sure the FOH-guy is your friend. And I had very good experiences with that.

 

[WashburnAB95]

The problem as I see it... Soundmen who think they are Producers. Yes producers can be great if you do some research and hire sombody you really trust in the buisness. However average joes that try to be producers suck ass! Your job as sound man is to reinforce MY sound and make it sound good in the room.

 

[ThisBass]

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Thinking as musician and thinking as technician is sometimes tricky because one and the same phrase of a expression does sometimes mean different things.

It's offtopic I know, but often musicians talk about an improved dynamic behavior and feeling where the dynamic is decreased decreased.
Talking as a musician I would be right because the dynamic feels smoother if it is decreased (and so the total tonal feeling of the gear more compact), but talking as technician I would be totally wrong in this case.

Even in Germany there are a very lot of mismatches and misunderstandings because musicians gladly use periphrases which are, rough words, sufficient enough for musical description but totally wrong in technical reading.

 

[ThisBass]

Have a happy new year!