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Why have a nice rig just to be run direct?

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Squeezer basically summed up my experience and why prefer a DI for any instrument I can use it on.

But I'm also reading here that some bassists are experiencing sound engineers placing the DI box right after the bass and before the effects. I haven't had this experience myself. Usually, they place the DI box right before the amp input. It sends my bass and effects but not the amp or its eq.

I could give them my amp's post-eq direct send. That gives him my amp's overdrive (good) but also my amp's eq ( not sure if that's good).

At my next gig, Im going to try getting my overdrive from my Darkglass pedal, and sending that through the DI before my signal hits my amp 's EQ. This will give the sound guy my overdrive effect but a flat EQ he can sculpt for FOH.
 
OK, well here's my technical content reply to all that:

Assuming all that is true, who cares? It still sounds better than the vast majority of DI's. And if I can get the mic'ed sound of my rig to sound so close that I can't tell where the amp ends and the PA begins, anyone can. I don't do anything special...I just did a little bit of homework on mic placement and I know where to put it to make it happen and I know what to say to the soundman to make it happen. And since I've made it happen in a number of different situations with completely different PA's of varying quality, then it ain't luck.
My little bit of homework included reading your postings and some link I got from the livesound forum. 1st time using p2 I went for 1" out, aimed straight in with the edge of mic at edge of dustcap of swr goliath driver. Got a hole in one and the few times since I repeated without any problem, but haven't been out the front to check.

Once again, if you look like you know where you're placing your mic the soundguy has less reason to imagine the worst. You can even communicate the fact you know your placement works.
 
OK, technical content follows -- don't read it if you're not interested...

I am very interested and since I just picked up an AT825 stereo condenser mic I'm going to try to do the experiment sooner than later. What you're saying makes a lot of sense and I want a better first hand understanding of it.

HOWEVER…..what came to mind after finishing your post is a session I did last year. Bass was recorded in two channels, the REDDI and the studio's '74 SVT close miced with a single cardioid....an RE20 if memory serves. The difference between the mic and DI was minimal and while he twiddled knobs and we talked for a few minutes the fundamental sounds were dialed in in about ten seconds for the DI (seriously) and maybe two minutes for the mic (it was in a booth and he ran in to tweak the mic and EQ a couple of times. I was stunned at the similarities between the REDDI and the mic. I wish I had those masters.

My point is that is that most gigs I do are easy for me because I show up with a waaaaay bigger tool set than I’ll ever use in a 400 seat bar playing country or R&B or rock songs. I expect the same of the audio techs that are doing those very same gigs. Micing a bass amp may be more work than a DI but it's a standard lick even a moderately skilled tech should have command of. Like someone said earlier this discussion seems to be more about self defense against shyte soundmen than what’s reasonably possible.

For years I was the guy that said just use a good DI and don’t make waves. Now I want to learn everything I can about close micing my amp mostly so I can work more effectively with the audio tech but also so I can call BS when I need to.
 
I agree with Jimmy, basically.

Even if the sound of a close mic on my cab isn't the exact same as what my ears are picking up, it's still a better, more complete, more accurate representation of my sound than just taking a DI off my bass. Not that the latter sounds bad, per se, just that it's a completely different sound than I and my band use, and so won't fit in with the rest of the instruments in the same way as in rehearsal and recordings.
 
OK, well here's my technical content reply to all that:

Assuming all that is true, who cares? It still sounds better than the vast majority of DI's. And if I can get the mic'ed sound of my rig to sound so close that I can't tell where the amp ends and the PA begins, anyone can. I don't do anything special...I just did a little bit of homework on mic placement and I know where to put it to make it happen and I know what to say to the soundman to make it happen. And since I've made it happen in a number of different situations with completely different PA's of varying quality, then it ain't luck.

Like I said, if you're happy with your setup that's fine by me.

For all the people you don't care about who have often been less than happy with FOH sound but don't know why -- and by the sound of it, there are a lot of them about -- I was simply suggesting something that might make them happier.

Happy New Year, everyone :-)
 
I'm wondering a little bit because DI is nearly every time treated as DI but nothing else.
Every DI which is plugged to the power amp out provides a totally different signal than pre amplifier.
Especially on tube power amps which lack a little bit on damping factors, thus letting the speakers swing off a little bit uncontrolled (less accurate), a DI plugged into a cab may bring this "speaker inaccuracy" to FOH.
 
I agree with Jimmy, basically.

Even if the sound of a close mic on my cab isn't the exact same as what my ears are picking up, it's still a better, more complete representation of my sound than just taking a DI off my bass. Not that the latter sounds bad, per se, just that it's a completely different sound than I and my band use, and so won't fit in with the rest of the instruments in the same way as in rehearsal and recordings.

Obviously a clean DI feed straight off the bass sounds completely different to a (non-flat) cabinet and mic, and if the cab+mic is the sound you like then you certainly won't want to use a clean DI feed, and I never suggested this. But there are then lots of reasons why the sound out front can them be not what you want -- unless you're JimmyM ;-)

The alternative I suggested is to use a cabinet simulator plus other effects/distortion before the DI, and then a flat monitor with the same feed as FOH. The aim is to get the (cabinet-like?) sound you want on-stage and *the same* sound out front, with much less reliance on EQ tweaking at the desk.

It probably won't sound *exactly* like your cabinet on-stage (depending how good the cabinet simulator is), but it'll probably sound *more* like it out front -- unless you're JimmyM ;-)

Nothing more to say, signing off for New Year...
 
One thing i've not heard mentioned yet, is if you combine the sound of your bass/ amp with everything else mic or DI, it will sound different in the mix. I' m a eq smiley face guy, my amp sounds excellent but, when combined with the mix, sometimes, no clarity in the PA. I have to push the mids to cut though.. Be flexible. There is no constant in rooms and venues
 
To tell it honestly as a sound guy, it does not make me wonder.
To answer as a musician, I understand your confusion.

Nothing makes someone sound more ignorant than trying to sound smart when they aren't. Either you don't know what you are talking about (most likely) or your communication skills are abysmal. Either way, on to the ignore list you go.
 
Nothing makes someone sound more ignorant than trying to sound smart when they aren't. Either you don't know what you are talking about (most likely) or your communication skills are abysmal. Either way, on to the ignore list you go.

I think he's a bright guy, but tends to preach what's he's read as a substitue for real world experience... I also think there's a slight language barrier coming into play here...


- georgestrings
 
I'm aware of cab sims, but have never used one. Since my favorite cab to use hasn't been manufactured in about 40 years... I'm not sure a cab sim would really do the job, as I doubt there's a simulator for my cab.

[...apologies for a long post...]

Well, this is why many guitarists/bassists are getting really serious about their methodology with respect to cabinet simulations, and capturing impulse responses of their own cabinets, or of those that exist in studios with a really nice selection of vintage speaker cabinets. This gets discussed far less amongst bassists than it does amongst guitarists, but I'm actually pretty encouraged that the discussion about cabinet sound translating to FOH sound seems to be happening with some regularity now.

The fundamental stumbling block for those who are interested in exploring the use of custom cabinet sims (IRs) is that the devices available that allow the use of custom IRs of a higher order of quality tend to be pretty pricey. For best results of real tube amp (preamp and power amp) distortion's contribution to the tone, a load box device seems ideal, but putting that aside for the time being, there are few pieces of equipment to choose from that provide robust cabinet emulation, allowing the use of custom impulse captures. Kemper and Fractal have systems that provide the amp modeling as a key component along with cabinet simulation. Fractal Audio's AxeFxII has built-in technology that allows the user to capture their own Cabinet impulses, as well as a "tone matching" technology that is used in all sorts of creative ways to closely emulate the tone footprint of everything from acoustic guitars to stomp boxes and preamps. 2 Notes has a variety of hardware solutions like the VB101 (which includes a "load box" for speaker-less implementation) and the C.A.B. pedal (no load box).

I think the key to the dilemma of using a mic to capture "your tone" to send to FOH is to first understand what you are hearing out of your amp, and then understand exactly what your amp truly sounds like via a microphone, as squeezer has done his best to emphasize and explain. Cabinet simulation technology is being used quite a bit now, but it is not a trivial topic. Beyond the costs associated with going this route, I see time and time again those who try to implement the technology getting frustrated, generally due to a lack of understanding what the technology is supposed to accomplish.

Ideally, you would take your rig into a pro quality studio, crank up your speaker (amp) in a "dead room" and mic it in such a way (multiple mics of various types and at different distances) that the end result is pleasing when placed in a representative full band mix (of your band, ideally, or at least something of a similar genre). The contributors to the resulting captured cabinet impulse are not only the mics, but the mic preamps used, and we all know how a really sweet mic pre can make all the difference. Again, this is an engineering task that requires great care, ears and experience. Thus it is more commonplace to use the stock cabinet impulses provided that come with "the box", and hope you can tweak something to your liking.

Let's say, then, that you've now got a .wav file captured by a software program that represents the pleasant sound of your studio-captured bass speaker that you'd like to be sent to FOH when you gig live. You'll need to load this IR into a 2 Notes or Fractal Audio product (speaker emulator), fed by a pre-amp out signal into the speaker emulator unit, which then gets sent to FOH, while on stage you continue to monitor your bass guitar with your stage amp as you always have. If you have a load box, you can do the same, but from the power amp output of your amp. This is the state of technology today. It is still very young, but improving every day. It does work, and you don't need to take just my word for it. Major acts are utilizing it every day of the week.

Now, the whole discussion about mic'ing the bass amp or not is moot IMHO, since technology allows bassists to avoid the whole issue completely if they choose to. Whether bassists are willing to explore and dedicate time and $$$ to this solution is another story. All I can say is that my life is a helluva lot less stressful for implementing cabinet impulse technology in my bass rig. No sound tech has ever questioned the direct feed I provide, and I've never been dissatisfied with the sound that is reproduced FOH or in the monitor system. It is far superior and rewarding to any other method I have employed in my previous 25 years of performing. It's simple, elegant, and solves so many problems. But...right now it's expensive.
 
Jim, cab sims are actually my next frontier to be conquered. I've got a REDDI and I'm finally deliriously happy with my DI sound, except I want to be able to knock off the highs past 5k in a fashion similar to my HSVT 810e. So I don't feel the need to go all Two Notes Torpedo with it, but I do want something there. What I really need is a glorified EQ, not so much an actual cab sim. But I don't want something that's going to my rig as well as the DI because it causes a loss of brightness in my rig, so it needs to have a 3 pin XLR input, and it can't touch the REDDI's beautiful output in any other way. Currently, I find nothing on the market that suits me, so I'm probably going to have to go to a company like [sfx] to get it done, as they've done similar custom projects in the past. When I get that going, I will be happy with a DI feed 100%. Don't know why nothing like that exists already...I certainly can't be the only one who wants a cab sim in my DI only.

My only problem with digital simulation of cabs and effects and stuff like that is that unless it's very high end, it always sounds to me like a rather low bitrate MP3 version of the real thing. Don't know much about the Two Notes stuff, but all the digital stuff I've tried that didn't have the guns of at least your standard modern desktop computer has been lacking.
 
Yeah, Jimmy, I saw your other thread on that custom DI...interested to see where that lands. I do think there is a gap in the market for this type of problem solving device. I think we all want the same end result - a fair representation of our bass rig in the FOH. There's nothing wrong with mic'ing a bass rig, but that it is met with occasional resistance, unfortunately.
 
It isn't true that you lose the tweeter, at least in my experience. The cab I usually mic is a 410 with a tweeter, and I can always hear the tweeter coming through the mic.

No that wasn't my point!

I was saying that if you use some kind of distortion, even overdrive, you will cut off the tweeter because it doesn't sounds good IMO.
So the cab will sounds like a regular cab.

What's your experience on mic placement near the tweeter ?
Does it sounds good?
 
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