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Why is "Metal" constantly being bashed by "real" musicians?

#163
These threads are so funny. Every time there's a metal thread, the same people show up to criticize it or so flippantly ask the metalheads "why do you care?" & whatnot. Every time. It's amazing how much time they spend 'discussing' a genre they have no respect for.

I'm hardly a fan of metal anymore, but I'm nowhere near self important enough to think that makes it any less of an art form.
 
#164
I've never enjoyed metal, and although I don't think I am musician enough to look down on any other musician - regardless of genre (and I don't think this kind of competition should apply to music, anyway), I often look down on metal as a genre.

Hey, I am not saying I'm right. I agree there's a lot of amazing musicianship in metal, and I even like some Iron Maiden and Black Sabbath (Edit: and Ozzy, and other metal bands too. Please note I enjoy some metal songs. Probably a vast minority). Even so -- and this is more a feeling than an elaboration -- I feel that all the loud instruments, distortion, shouted vocals, speed, etc. are there only to distract the listener from (and this is just my personal opinion on most metal bands) the lack of actual, uh, music going on.

It's not the loudness -- I love many many bands that play loud and distorted. Nor is the vocal distortion(I love Tom Waits). But I just that I can't hear anything really musical beneath it. but maybe I haven't tried hard enough.

I'll put it differently: I can't remember listening a metal song for the second time and actually enjoying it more or discovering more under the surface.

Again, I really admire some metal musicians, but I admire them in a much more similar way to how I admire, say, Michael Schumacher, than how I admire any other musician.

And this is not a bashing.

Anyway, many people don't "get" bass, or say "oh, it's much easier than guitar". It's their right to have that opinion, and I don't think many bass players really care about it. If metal musicians / players / enthusiasts get metal, why care?
 
#165
I would probably say that any distaste or thumb-nosery (yeah I just made that word up, deal with it) towards the metal genre may come from its lack in innovation, and (depending on subgenre) inherent lack of melody, or thought provocation. Now I know I'm going to upset some people here with the previous statement, but cool your jets for a minute. I grew up as a metalhead, and the most influential music to me was in the genre. I'm not some Johnny-come-lately to the party. I'm coming from a place of love

From speed metal, thrash metal, death metal, satanic metal, comedy metal, doom/sludge metal, industrial metal, Christian metal, rap metal (which should never have existed), goth metal, etc....... you get the point, I've listened to and loved bands from ALL metal genres, and still have a huge sweet spot for all those bands I used to listen to.

But then one day, I started liking softer music. Music that seemed to have a different feel to it. What I encountered was, music doesn't have to always be aggressive, and music isn't always about negative things. Melody can actually be really beautiful and emotive when it's not limited to dueling guitar solos, or to the "slow" chorus (there are exceptions to these rules, and I could also name bands that are, so I am aware).

Metal, even in all of its subgenres, is too often limited to certain factors, and can be too formulaic- it's just inherent in its genre. And even though there are a lot of talented metal players that are extremely technical, technical doesn't always equal good.

So where I stand, a lot of the genre including sub-genres has been done before, it's just a new set of faces. Other genres are not as limited to how they can create, because they don't have to follow by such narrow rules. It seems the majority of metal bands these days follow the narrow path of how to play more aggressively than the last band in that genre, or play more technically advanced than the last band to hit it big within that genre. The rest are left standing in a puddle of "it's been done before".

I'd be curious to hear people's opinions of bands that have advanced the genre in the last 8-10 years, or brought something new and innovative to the table, but I have my doubts.
 
#166
P-oddz said:
I would probably say that any distaste or thumb-nosery (yeah I just made that word up, deal with it) towards the metal genre may come from its lack in innovation, and (depending on subgenre) inherent lack of melody, or thought provocation. Now I know I'm going to upset some people here with the previous statement, but cool your jets for a minute. I grew up as a metalhead, and the most influential music to me was in the genre. I'm not some Johnny-come-lately to the party. I'm coming from a place of love

From speed metal, thrash metal, death metal, satanic metal, comedy metal, doom/sludge metal, industrial metal, Christian metal, rap metal (which should never have existed), goth metal, etc....... you get the point, I've listened to and loved bands from ALL metal genres, and still have a huge sweet spot for all those bands I used to listen to.

But then one day, I started liking softer music. Music that seemed to have a different feel to it. What I encountered was, music doesn't have to always be aggressive, and music isn't always about negative things. Melody can actually be really beautiful and emotive when it's not limited to dueling guitar solos, or to the "slow" chorus (there are exceptions to these rules, and I could also name bands that are, so I am aware).

Metal, even in all of its subgenres, is too often limited to certain factors, and can be too formulaic- it's just inherent in its genre. And even though there are a lot of talented metal players that are extremely technical, technical doesn't always equal good.

So where I stand, a lot of the genre including sub-genres has been done before, it's just a new set of faces. Other genres are not as limited to how they can create, because they don't have to follow by such narrow rules. It seems the majority of metal bands these days follow the narrow path of how to play more aggressively than the last band in that genre, or play more technically advanced than the last band to hit it big within that genre. The rest are left standing in a puddle of "it's been done before".

I'd be curious to hear people's opinions of bands that have advanced the genre in the last 8-10 years, or brought something new and innovative to the table, but I have my doubts.
Click to expand...

You seem to be coming from nearly the same place I am. I agree that any "innovations" that I've heard come out of this music style are steps backwards & everything else has been done a zillion times before. But the advances you're looking for here are subjective. A buddy of mine in his 40's never got out of metal, still loves it. He shows me new bands & I say, "and? it's the same old shite" but he recognizes & appreciates every little nuance that separates one group from another. You & I are not in a position to offer fair commentary.
 
#167
Darth Handsome said:
You seem to be coming from nearly the same place I am. I agree that any "innovations" that I've heard come out of this music style are steps backwards & everything else has been done a zillion times before. But the advances you're looking for here are subjective. A buddy of mine in his 40's never got out of metal, still loves it. He shows me new bands & I say, "and? it's the same old shite" but he recognizes & appreciates every little nuance that separates one group from another. You & I are not in a position to offer fair commentary.
Click to expand...

Point taken, and it's a fair point. Some of my conclusion is biased in the fact that I don't find the genre that appealing anymore

But I also feel that being a big fan of the genre for quite some time (especially a fan of some of the more extreme forms of the genre), I feel I can be at liberty to say that the genre has become highly derivative of itself, and by its nature will not expand much beyond what has already been established, to classify it into the genre.
 
#168
P-oddz said:
But I also feel that being a big fan of the genre for quite some time (especially a fan of some of the more extreme forms of the genre), I feel I can be at liberty to say that the genre has become highly derivative of itself, and by its nature will not expand much beyond what has already been established, to classify it into the genre.
Click to expand...

I agree with your opinion 100%. But again, it's subjective. How much expansion or innovation that is being made in the genre may not seem like much to us, but to someone else it's making leaps & bounds.
 
#169
The answer is because every 2 days theres a new "Whats the best **** for metal" thread. Whats funny, is that this is usually a legitimate question as its rough to get bass to sit in the metal mix well without being squashed out of existence, at least (I would suspect) more difficult than other genres, since in metal every other musician is cramping into the bassist's realm.

But metal bassists can't figure out the search button, or they're hot off the Ultimate Guitars forums and want to make a dent over here. Either way, I love listening to metal, but I think I am done playing it. Way too much work involved in writing/learning songs (each new songs I had to basically "get better" at playing bass, since we kept writing more complex stuff), crappy gigs all day long, hardly ever getting paid, being watched by a room full of smelly dudes. Don't get me wrong, its definitely a rush to be on stage playing it, but the work/reward balance is skewed. Also, a very weird scene, as you get this metal elitism within the local music scenes. The best part is that metal dudes are usually fashion nazis, who will jump at the chance to comment on the flip flops or khaki shorts you wear to practice, as if a beat up Maiden shirt that smells like a dead raccoon is the epitome of style. Sorry but that part always got to me.

Last local show I went to, the guitarist from another band we used to play with alot asked me what I was up to and if I was still playing at all. I told him me and my old guitarist (from our old metal band) were going to start a classic rock cover band to start playing consistent gigs and making real $$$ in our area. This was apparently hilarious to him, oh well, I guess he wouldn't be caught dead playing in a band that made money and had fans.
 
#170
P-oddz said:
I would probably say that any distaste or thumb-nosery (yeah I just made that word up, deal with it) towards the metal genre may come from its lack in innovation, and (depending on subgenre) inherent lack of melody, or thought provocation. Now I know I'm going to upset some people here with the previous statement, but cool your jets for a minute. I grew up as a metalhead, and the most influential music to me was in the genre. I'm not some Johnny-come-lately to the party. I'm coming from a place of love

From speed metal, thrash metal, death metal, satanic metal, comedy metal, doom/sludge metal, industrial metal, Christian metal, rap metal (which should never have existed), goth metal, etc....... you get the point, I've listened to and loved bands from ALL metal genres, and still have a huge sweet spot for all those bands I used to listen to.

But then one day, I started liking softer music. Music that seemed to have a different feel to it. What I encountered was, music doesn't have to always be aggressive, and music isn't always about negative things. Melody can actually be really beautiful and emotive when it's not limited to dueling guitar solos, or to the "slow" chorus (there are exceptions to these rules, and I could also name bands that are, so I am aware).

Metal, even in all of its subgenres, is too often limited to certain factors, and can be too formulaic- it's just inherent in its genre. And even though there are a lot of talented metal players that are extremely technical, technical doesn't always equal good.

So where I stand, a lot of the genre including sub-genres has been done before, it's just a new set of faces. Other genres are not as limited to how they can create, because they don't have to follow by such narrow rules. It seems the majority of metal bands these days follow the narrow path of how to play more aggressively than the last band in that genre, or play more technically advanced than the last band to hit it big within that genre. The rest are left standing in a puddle of "it's been done before".

I'd be curious to hear people's opinions of bands that have advanced the genre in the last 8-10 years, or brought something new and innovative to the table, but I have my doubts.
Click to expand...

There is much truth here, though I can't imagine that lack of innovation is the main deterrent for most newcomers. There are lots of other deterrents, all quite obvious and mentioned a bunch of times.

I would say that the genre still spits out great innovators, and if we stretch the timeframe you mentioned a little then I would suggest Gojira, late Opeth stuff and the two newest Slipknot albums. And of course Tool sets a new standard for music quality in general whenever they pick up their instruments IMO. I agree that this is a very small part of the scene that actually pushes forward, and unfortunately I see that trend in other areas as well, exceptions including the ones where originality is the only (and strangely still rarely achieved) goal regardless of quality (*ahem*indie*ahem*).
 
#171
RNV said:
I have been on this forum for a while now, and I can't understand the animosity towards metal. Sure, I love the jokes about the spikes and being mindless souls and whatnot, but to personally bash a genre and say that the music is talentless is ridiculous. I listen to several styles of music with metal, big band swing, ska, and rockabilly being my favorites. Now I admit being a much better drummer than bass player, but the question applies to both if not all instruments. I just would like to know what makes non metal bassist so much better than someone who plays metal? Is it the fact that you play other people's music several times a month to people who are at that bar regardless if your band is there vs. a different band? Do you like the fact that changing the arrangement to a song is switching from the album to live version?

I know it seems that I have gone on the attack. Perhaps. It just seems that the ones who bash and ruin the threads with legit questions about playing metal always seem to be in weekend cover/bar bands.

Its true that EVERY genre has it's steaming piles of dung, but I don't really care for any of The Doors hits. Should that mean I should hate the doors? I'm glad I look deeper into their catalog. I love that band.
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IMO, metal is something that is appealing to younger kids (I know I used to dig metal in my teens), but to an adult, its harder to appreciate and especially harder to realte too. I mean, I appreciate the musicianship, but Lamb of God or Cannibal Corpse does very little for me as a man approaching 40. I dont relate to it anymore. I dont have any pent up anger and angst. Metal IMO, is alot like gansta rap, pro wrestling, and Jerky Boys albums.... fun as a teen, but little value to an adult.

This is of course, unless you are referring to Metallica, Megadeth, or Sabbath... however, those are closer to classic rock bands IMO.
 
#174
powderfinger said:
PSS- The Doors don't suck, but like metal, offer very little to an adult. I mean, I thought Celebration of the Lizard was so deep and meaningful in 9th grade. Now I think its horsesh***.
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I dont think you really intended it, but I think alot of the animosity in these forums (watch out, here comes a blanket statement) comes from person A saying that they used to like something that person B likes now, but they grew out of it, and now its stupid. Its a politically correct way of insulting someone while keeping your innocence.

"I used to like Ampeg SVTs back in the 80s, but now I realize they're so big and heavy, and you can get a good enough tone out of a smaller amp, that people must be stupid to still lug them around!"

"I loved Rush when I was in junior high. Then I started having sex with women"

"Ibanez/Warwick/Schechter/ESP/Dean made awesome instruments in the 80's/90's, but everything they make now BLOWS!"

Just some examples of the things I've read and kinda shook my head in shame. Its basically saying "only an immature person with unrefined tastes likes that...I used to be in the dark like you, but now I am enlightened and maybe someday you will be too!"

I'm not really knockin you, but everyone has those moments where they read somethin and it hits a nerve, so I figured I'd comment on my observation. Why would I be offended that you don't like the Doors anymore? It doesnt make any sense, I know.
 
#175
Toastfuzz said:
I dont think you really intended it, but I think alot of the animosity in these forums (watch out, here comes a blanket statement) comes from person A saying that they used to like something that person B likes now, but they grew out of it, and now its stupid. Its a politically correct way of insulting someone while keeping your innocence.

"I used to like Ampeg SVTs back in the 80s, but now I realize they're so big and heavy, and you can get a good enough tone out of a smaller amp, that people must be stupid to still lug them around!"

"I loved Rush when I was in junior high. Then I started having sex with women"

"Ibanez/Warwick/Schechter/ESP/Dean made awesome instruments in the 80's/90's, but everything they make now BLOWS!"

Just some examples of the things I've read and kinda shook my head in shame. Its basically saying "only an immature person with unrefined tastes likes that...I used to be in the dark like you, but now I am enlightened and maybe someday you will be too!"

I'm not really knockin you, but everyone has those moments where they read somethin and it hits a nerve, so I figured I'd comment on my observation. Why would I be offended that you don't like the Doors anymore? It doesnt make any sense, I know.
Click to expand...

I think this post had a lot of merit.
 
#178
Faderoktopus said:
There is much truth here, though I can't imagine that lack of innovation is the main deterrent for most newcomers. There are lots of other deterrents, all quite obvious and mentioned a bunch of times.

I would say that the genre still spits out great innovators, and if we stretch the timeframe you mentioned a little then I would suggest Gojira, late Opeth stuff and the two newest Slipknot albums. And of course Tool sets a new standard for music quality in general whenever they pick up their instruments IMO. I agree that this is a very small part of the scene that actually pushes forward, and unfortunately I see that trend in other areas as well, exceptions including the ones where originality is the only (and strangely still rarely achieved) goal regardless of quality (*ahem*indie*ahem*).
Click to expand...

Late Opeth stuff is great, Slipknot lost me after Iowa, and I was never really into Gojira (though I had a buddy who was). Agreed on Tool as well, however I find I have less patience for rock "events" which Tool can get into, and would much rather listen to a 3 - 4:30 minute song (but that's just me).

And granted, I'm not up to snuff on all things metal these days, but I feel like there were originators of certain styles, and then bands after that were following in footsteps. I guess that would be the thrust of my opinion. It seems like metal, to me, became saturated with mediocrity. The last album I heard that blew me away (and I consider a high-water mark in the genre) and I felt really pushed limits (experimented with the genre and twisted what metal could be) was probably Nothingface's Skeletons album. Brutality meets melody, harmonies, organs, shredding guitars, political/religious statements, literary references, all the f-bombs you could shake a fist at, and even audio of a blinker! But that was in 2003.

There was stuff that I listened to beyond 2003, but it just seemed like it followed the same formulas to me. It seems like the choices went to: "do we make the album heavier and faster than the last", or "do we sing the verse, then scream the chorus, or scream the verse then sing the chorus"? If those weren't the questions posed, then the new stuff tried to just out riff the old stuff (which leads me to my "technical isn't always better" argument).

I don't know, maybe I'm an old fuddy - and have to accept I put on my grandpa shoes a couple years ago.

I would be curious however to hear some current metal fans suggestions for good bands, and/or discussion of older metal bands that people felt hit it on the head.
 
#180
Darth Handsome said:
I think this post had a lot of merit.
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Agreed. Bryan Adams was my favorite artist when I was 10. I probably listened to Reckless 400 times the year I got it. I've definitely grown out of a lot of music, but I've also grown into a lot of music too... Hip hop, country, and ambient to name a few.

However, I've yet to grow out of thrash or punk rock. I've totally grown out of certain bands w/in these genres but as a whole I still listen to as much or more punk rock and metal than ever before. Pandora rules my world, man... It's brought me so many awesome bands I'd have never heard without it.

Here's to discovering new music! :bassist:
 

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