Why is the 1000 ASP ICE module not more popular?

[12bass]

My response to 12Bass's question was an accurate answer, it wasn't a simple yes/no answer because that would be neither accurate or complete. There are sonic advantages to the 250 module that are not present in the 1000 module because of the new control algorithms and methods used in the next generation module as well as some better approaches to power supply management. I'm sure some players might prefer one module over the other, if this is so important then those players should select their amps based on what module they think they like best, even if it doesn't matter performance-wise.

To clarify, my query was intended to be more hypothetical than real world.

Perhaps it could be rephrased as: If ultimate sound quality were the only guiding factor, and manufacturing and economic concerns were irrelevant, would you still be designing with class D?

 

[agedhorse]

For those wanting the widest possible bandwidth, especially at higher duty cycle, the 250 module is the winner in this department. The HF bandwidth is better and the distortion is lower.

Funny how the very things folks think are most important aren't always represented as well in their "favorite" module.

There are things each module does better. It's the designer's responsibility to make the best choice for their product, not somebody else's product.

 

[ThisBass]

Quoted because it makes an awesome quote.

Sorry but I can't translate the phrase into my language due to ambiguity.

 

[ThisBass]

Can't say I agree on the last point. My basses have Lane Poor and Q-tuner pickups because I seek faithful reproduction of the sound of the instruments. I want a wide bandwidth sound, at least to start with. I do not appreciate it when low fidelity on board active electronics loses the nuance and clarity of the instrument. While I agree that frequency slotting can be important within a mix, I do not agree that using low fidelity electronics (with various forms of added distortion) is the best way to achieve it. I would rather use a high fidelity signal path and use high quality EQ as necessary to achieve a good sound.

Clearly the term LoFi I used was the wrong term to discribe a distinct meaning.
It wasn't meant in a sense of crap, it was rather meant in sense of approved "average" which isn't top-end possible.

 

[ThisBass]

Nice explanation to comprehend "Duty Cycle"
Includes the meaning of sine power tests
Invalid Link Removed

 

[ThisBass]

For those wanting the widest possible bandwidth, especially at higher duty cycle, the 250 module is the winner in this department. The HF bandwidth is better and the distortion is lower.

Funny how the very things folks think are most important aren't always represented as well in their "favorite" module.

There are things each module does better. It's the designer's responsibility to make the best choice for their product, not somebody else's product.

To be honest, reading all of the data sheets carefully takes a couple of minutes, or even more.

 

[agedhorse]

To be honest, reading all of the data sheets carefully takes a couple of minutes, or even more.

It takes a lot of time to be able to thoroughly understand the important details. Then, there's all the additional information that is between the lines of what is written.

 

[peterpalmieri]

Can someone provide a few examples of amps that use each of these? I know Demeter mini uses the 250, berg IP and LWA use the 1000 but I don't know others.

I know a lot goes into the design bresides just this

 

[JGR]

Can someone provide a few examples of amps that use each of these? I know Demeter mini uses the 250, berg IP and LWA use the 1000 but I don't know others.

I know a lot goes into the design bresides just this

I don't think the LWA uses the 1000 but I believe the Berg IP and TC Blacksmith did/do, as well as the upcoming SF/MAS and my Studio1200. The 250 has been employed in various models by GK, Aguilar, Demeter, TecAmp, GB...

 

[B-string]

Can someone provide a few examples of amps that use each of these? I know Demeter mini uses the 250, berg IP and LWA use the 1000 but I don't know others.

I know a lot goes into the design bresides just this

This is true, as I learned something about class D implementation in audio. It is better to think of module integration instead of bolting "B" to "A" like the older audio operation classes.

 

[nutdog]

Just wondering if anyone, especially on the manufacturing side can chime in as to why this power module is not more popular within the bass amp community.

I don't think the LWA uses the 1000 but I believe the Berg IP and TC Blacksmith did/do, as well as the upcoming SF/MAS and my Studio1200. The 250 has been employed in various models by GK, Aguilar, Demeter, TecAmp, GB...

The berg IP's were expensive and relatively heavy. There seemed to be a lot of people saying they were finicky about preamps. They are discontinued.

The 1000 amps listed are $1999 and up (not sure about SF/MAS). Most of the 250's are under $1k.

I had pre/hypex head that was in the $2-3k range. It was nice. I'm using 2 heads now that together cost less than half that. For my needs I'm not sure that the super duper head was better, and not just for the money.

So my guess is that, for most, the 250 will do what's needed for less. For those that need something else there are options but you're gonna have to pay for it.

 

[silky smoove]

The berg IP's were expensive and relatively heavy. There seemed to be a lot of people saying they were finicky about preamps

My recollection is that the finicky'ness of the Berg IP cabs was more about a given preamp not getting along with the power amp's built-in DSP that was implemented by Bergantino. The 1000 module without Berg's DSP is likely to be more "predictable."

 

[tombowlus]

Curious... is the GK MB800 or MBF800 included in this group? Bass Gear Magazine showed that the MB800 performed well under test.

Yes, GK uses the 250 in the MB800 and MBF800, but Bob Gallien's designs regarding power supply, thermal management, filtering, limiting, etc. seemed to be extremely effective. The MB800 outperformed pretty much every other amp we tested (both officially, and unofficially) both on and off the bench. Some other heads also performed quite well using the 250 module, but IME/IMHO, GK has the most impressive iteration of a 250-based head.

That being said, I have been quite impressed with the amps which I have heard which use the 1000 module.

 

[peterpalmieri]

This is true, as I learned something about class D implementation in audio. It is better to think of module integration instead of bolting "B" to "A" like the older audio operation classes.

Understood. I'm not looking to pass judgement just get a sense of the amps I've played that had one or the other.

 

[B-string]

Oh I got that, thats cool.
The problem is like the guys that spent their money on KT-90 or KT-120 output tubes in their 6550/KT88 amps and really did not get much difference. How the assembly is implemented can mean much more than what brand/model it is. The same module can perform average in one "make" and excel in someone else's end product. Makes black and white blend to a nice shade of grey.

 

[bucephylus]

Yes, GK uses the 250 in the MB800 and MBF800, but Bob Gallien's designs regarding power supply, thermal management, filtering, limiting, etc. seemed to be extremely effective. The MB800 outperformed pretty much every other amp we tested (both officially, and unofficially) both on and off the bench. Some other heads also performed quite well using the 250 module, but IME/IMHO, GK has the most impressive iteration of a 250-based head.

That being said, I have been quite impressed with the amps which I have heard which use the 1000 module.

Tom, does the GK MB800 actually outperform the Demeter 250 implementations? Just curious; my retrofitted VTBP201 with the 250 inside it absolutely pounds. I can't imagine actually needing more than that for most gigs. I do have a Crest ProLite 3.0 for really big gigs. I don't know what is in that, but suspect maybe 2x250's? That thing also pounds.

I've listened to the 1200 clips; and that thing blows me away. But, the waiting time and cost are large; and again, the improvement would seem to be marginal for my needs. But, I do think about that one.

 

[tombowlus]

Tom, does the GK MB800 actually outperform the Demeter 250 implementations? Just curious; my retrofitted VTBP201 with the 250 inside it absolutely pounds. I can't imagine actually needing more than that for most gigs. I do have a Crest ProLite 3.0 for really big gigs. I don't know what is in that, but suspect maybe 2x250's? That thing also pounds.

Very slightly, yes, but their output performance is so close as to be a negligible difference.

 

[Kirk Bryant]

So which power modules are the Magellan 800 and the Subway 800 using? I know I could go skim the threads but someone surly knows off the top of their head.

 

[ThisBass]

This is true, as I learned something about class D implementation in audio. It is better to think of module integration instead of bolting "B" to "A" like the older audio operation classes.

The published data-sheets show clearly that there is something more to consider than max power out and min Ohm load.

In general I love to read those papers, unfortunatelly I'm very busy at present, except a "couple of minutes" at breakfeast or in the evening.

Over current protection of modules 250ASX2 and 700ASC without telling which statement belongs to distinct module-type

The overcurrent detection circuit is included in the ICEpower chipset by detecting saturation of the control system. This condition will typically be allowed for 100ms to 500ms which is enough to avoid accidental shutdown at peak currents during high music output. The current limit is set to 30A.

The over current protection circuit is divided into two parts. Pulse-by-pulse protection and loop saturation protection. The pulse-by-pulse protection circuit limits the peak output current to 30 A. The loop saturation protection circuit detects saturation of the control loop. This condition will typically be allowed for 100 ms to 500 ms which is enough to avoid accidental shutdown at peak currents during music output. This protects the amplifier against excessive heating during short circuits.

 

[spankdaplank]

Okay, I have been holding off commenting, but here is my two cents. As in 2 dirty penny's worth.
I have two 1000ASP ICEpower modules. I was lucky enough to find them after a lot of searching on the web. Basically unobtanium as these are normally only available to OEM entities. I used the first one as the power for an exact (fairly exact) cloned B15 preamp. It is a monster to say the least. My amp has pre out/power amp in jacks so I have kicked it with anything and everything I own that could possibly be put in front of the power section including but not limited to: Ampeg SVT IIP, VT Bass pedal, Zoom B2, Korg PX4b, the pre amp sections of my Carvin BX500 and my Peavey VB-3. Into 4 ohms and 2 ohms. It performed seamlessly with everything including direct from an active bass.
The Icepower 1000ASP module is amazing in it's absolute power, seemingly unlimited headroom, and its apparent quickness and clean percussiveness. I know that these are very subjective observations, but I think with over 50 years of bass playing experience it qualifies as good subjective observation. I hope some day to check out the advances that agedhorse talks about with the 250ASX2

I am grateful for guys like agedhorse and BbbyBld who actually design the stuff we use and work to advance the state of the art for us. I thoroughly enjoy these discussions and feebly try to learn something from it.