why is there no 1176 compressor in a pedal...

[Emanuel Apascaritei]

Ithe characterisitc 1176 sound has much to do with the transformers as well beside the topology of the comp. Actually the harmonics are added by the transformers IMO.

Overcompression can kill harmonics

 

[MSUsousaphone]

I have not yet jumped into the compressor waters. I have never been certain if they would help me in my playing situation or not, so I've head off on buying them while I sorted out all the other effects.

Same here. When I get to the end of my GAS list I start itching for a Joe Meek FloorQ (I want one as transparent it gets)....but then the list builds back up and I don't just put it on the back burner....I even start getting thinking "my fingers got this" and other DBy things. I'll even start thinking about upgrading my Eden head to one that has a built in compressor....though I'm sure there's better pedal compressors out there than what's built into a head.

Starting to look at the Joe Meek, again. Interested to see how Bongo reviews this....as well as the sfx one....doesn't sound like this is transparent, though.

 

[Origin Effects]

At high levels, and low frequency, the transformer cores will saturate - adding lower harmonics (Cali76 does not use transformers, at least in its standard format). However, these effects can be subtle unless you push the unit deliberately hard - then they become obvious.

Fast attack & release times will result in distortion artefacts – higher harmonics. These have more audible impact on low frequency signals. These artefacts can easily be seen using an oscilloscope. They're very obvious to the human ear.

Thanks to those who have made contact. I'm about to respond...

 

[bongomania]

Are the added harmonics and edge which some compressors impart to a source a function of compression characteristics or a result of the mechanical components used in the device? Or both?

Both, and "it depends". Here are some reasons any one comp might have more of that sense of harmonics and edge:
--it compresses the highs and lows differently;
--it has a slow attack that allows your initial transients through;
--it has an expander stage applied to the highs;
--its overall EQ shape emphasizes the highs;
--its intense reaction to the lows de-emphasizes them;
--some part of it clips or saturates to whatever degree;
--the general tendency of comps to raise the RMS of lower-level signal content.

It's also true that some comps do more harm than good in this area, and some will deaden upper harmonic content when set too strongly.

 

[bongomania]

At high levels, and low frequency, the transformer cores will saturate - adding lower harmonics (Cali76 does not use transformers, at least in its standard format). However, these effects can be subtle unless you push the unit deliberately hard - then they become obvious.

I'm curious why you chose not to include the transformers? I suspect that the sort of person who is willing to pay for an 1176 in a pedal is also the sort of person who would get bent out of shape about such a notable difference in components.

(Please note I am not making any assumptions about the actual sound qualities--only commenting on consumer tendencies.)

 

[bongomania]

When I get to the end of my GAS list I start itching for a Joe Meek FloorQ (I want one as transparent it gets)... Interested to see how Bongo reviews this....as well as the sfx one....doesn't sound like this is transparent, though.

Obviously I won't know the facts until I've tried it out, but in principle this 1176-variant is the sort of comp somebody buys because they want it to alter their signal noticeably. IOW not transparent.

In my review of the Joemeek I use the word "clean" but by that I don't mean transparent, really. I mean no clipping, muddying, muffling, or other obvious tonal changes, especially in re a sense of articulation. It is not "transparent", which I'd normally use only for a processor where I really can't hear any tonal change whatsoever, aside from the change in dynamic range.

The [sfx] one comes much closer; also the Rothwell is about as transparent as it gets.

At any rate I'm sure this pedal is GAS-worthy for many people, but maybe not for you.

 

[Origin Effects]

It would have been very nice to have been able to use a transformer. However, it's debatable as to whether the transformer is really generating the aspect of sound that MOST people like... For many it's about how the compressor FEELS, and interacts with the instrument. Certainly, I've had no complaints so far, and side-by-side comparisons (with the Urei 1176) have been entirely positive.

Design considerations... I wanted to give people the option of using battery power so the unit could be truly portable. This was always going to be a pedal, and battery operation is important to many users. Driving a “serious” loaded-transformer in a totally authentic way requires more current than a battery could realistically offer...

Another factor is cost. A transformer equipped pedal (using a good quality transformer and associated circuitry, larger PSU etc...) would definitely drive the price beyond what many could afford... I didn't want to include a transformer if it meant cutting corners with build quality etc, just to save cost... and I wouldn't want to add a cheap transformer just for the sake of marketing (as it just wouldn't sound-right)! Therefore the unit is as it is - the signal path is fully discrete, class-A and pure, 99% through-hole components and all superbly built - but alas transformer-free.

Of course, a transformer-option is not out of the question – but let's see what people make of the standard unit first! So far everyone's been blown away!

 

[TheBass]

Unfortunately I didn't had any chance to check a 1176 yet. MXR claims their M87 bass compressor pedal was designed to UREI 1176 specs. Just another marketing hype or any truth in it ?

 

[bongomania]

I got away with reviewing the M87 without actually comparing it to a real 1176; but now I'll have to buy the real thing to compare against the Cali76 and the M87! Luckily I can buy one of the new 1176 reissues from Musician's Friend on credit, and then return it; but of course that means I'd review the 1176 itself for my site--and that means I'd have to buy a vintage original one in order to describe any differences with the new reissue! FML.

 

[Emanuel Apascaritei]

It would have been very nice to have been able to use a transformer. However, it's debatable as to whether the transformer is really generating the aspect of sound that MOST people like... For many it's about how the compressor FEELS, and interacts with the instrument. Certainly, I've had no complaints so far, and side-by-side comparisons (with the Urei 1176) have been entirely positive.

Design considerations... I wanted to give people the option of using battery power so the unit could be truly portable. This was always going to be a pedal, and battery operation is important to many users. Driving a “serious” loaded-transformer in a totally authentic way requires more current than a battery could realistically offer...

Another factor is cost. A transformer equipped pedal (using a good quality transformer and associated circuitry, larger PSU etc...) would definitely drive the price beyond what many could afford... I didn't want to include a transformer if it meant cutting corners with build quality etc, just to save cost... and I wouldn't want to add a cheap transformer just for the sake of marketing (as it just wouldn't sound-right)! Therefore the unit is as it is - the signal path is fully discrete, class-A and pure, 99% through-hole components and all superbly built - but alas transformer-free.

Of course, a transformer-option is not out of the question – but let's see what people make of the standard unit first! So far everyone's been blown away!

I'm starting to like this even more. Imho, please don,t do the transformer thing if it's going to affect build quality.

I used the LN1176 re-issue succsefully on bass. The UAD 1176 also did good. So if this pedal acts close to an 1176 and for this price than it's for sure a deal.

This is on my radar for sure.

I want to buy a cheap fretless and modify it, so this thread doesn't help me much while you're short of money.

 

[Mr. Pickles]

I got away with reviewing the M87 without actually comparing it to a real 1176; but now I'll have to buy the real thing to compare against the Cali76 and the M87! Luckily I can buy one of the new 1176 reissues from Musician's Friend on credit, and then return it; but of course that means I'd review the 1176 itself for my site--and that means I'd have to buy a vintage original one in order to describe any differences with the new reissue! FML.

Head 'splodes.

 

[Origin Effects]

How many compressors do own? All the ones on your site?

 

[caeman]

Bongo, I love that plan.

That was a plan, right? Not a complaint? You carry a terrible burden now as the defacto expert on compressors. Don't disappoint us!

No pressure, man.

 

[MSUsousaphone]

Obviously I won't know the facts until I've tried it out, but in principle this 1176-variant is the sort of comp somebody buys because they want it to alter their signal noticeably. IOW not transparent.

In my review of the Joemeek I use the word "clean" but by that I don't mean transparent, really. I mean no clipping, muddying, muffling, or other obvious tonal changes, especially in re a sense of articulation. It is not "transparent", which I'd normally use only for a processor where I really can't hear any tonal change whatsoever, aside from the change in dynamic range.

The [sfx] one comes much closer; also the Rothwell is about as transparent as it gets.

At any rate I'm sure this pedal is GAS-worthy for many people, but maybe not for you.

Well, then it's a good thing I posted my faulty thinking. I'll definitely check out the Rothwell. Still might wait to catch your full review on the sfx when it's out. I feel a loyalty to them. Yeah, I figured from everyone's responses that there's something this guy does to the tone that many many people like. That's pretty groovy. It looks so pretty. Makes me want to want it. I would ask what it does the tone....but I can gladly wait for your full review.

I equate my compressor flip flopping to veggie eating...for what I want one for, it's not the instant gratification pseudo pizza of the FX world....but it's better for me in the long run. I need to snath one up while I have the will power to eat my spinach before my desert.

 

[caeman]

Eat desert first. Problem solved.

 

[MSUsousaphone]

Man, that saves me some time. I was so about to post a "what signal chain order should I use?" thread. So you're saying compressor goes AFTER my fuzz?

 

[Mingus Addict]

I got away with reviewing the M87 without actually comparing it to a real 1176; but now I'll have to buy the real thing to compare against the Cali76 and the M87! Luckily I can buy one of the new 1176 reissues from Musician's Friend on credit, and then return it; but of course that means I'd review the 1176 itself for my site--and that means I'd have to buy a vintage original one in order to describe any differences with the new reissue! FML.

You should see if any local studio's around you have one that they would let you check out. Another thing to consider is that the original 1176 and the Re-issue have already been heavily compared by a lot of people. In fact, I have generally heard two rules of thought when comparing these two.

1. The old ones are better for whatever reason.
2. The difference between a vintage unit and a re-issue is about equal to the difference between any two vintage units, as they all tend to vary slightly from one another.

 

[boomertech]

Unfortunately I didn't had any chance to check a 1176 yet. MXR claims their M87 bass compressor pedal was designed to UREI 1176 specs. Just another marketing hype or any truth in it ?

I haven’t read where MXR claims they duplicated the 100% discrete transistor signal path of the 1176. So if they are basing their claim on the same response characteristics (ratio, attack and release) then they are true.

You should see if any local studio's around you have one that they would let you check out. Another thing to consider is that the original 1176 and the Re-issue have already been heavily compared by a lot of people. In fact, I have generally heard two rules of thought when comparing these two.

1. The old ones are better for whatever reason.
2. The difference between a vintage unit and a re-issue is about equal to the difference between any two vintage units, as they all tend to vary slightly from one another.

As Mingus points out... There are a couple of versions of the 1176 with the main differences in the driver circuit for the output tranny. The 1176 uses a 100% class-A driver where the 1176N uses a class-AB (push-pull) driver for the transformer. One of the side effects of class-AB is that even ordered harmonics get cancelled. The general consensus is that even order harmonics are pleasing and warm.

The other thing that the class-A 1176 has that is absent in the 1176N (from what I can tell with a quick observation) is the distortion reducing feed from the signal preamp. They mixed this preamp signal at one of the output trannys primaries. This appears to be used to correct for any of the non-linearity from the class-A driver circuit. Since it is not present with the class-AB driver, they may have corrected for distortions with the same magnitude as the class-AB circuit does naturally. So the differences between them may only be minor sonic subtleties. Again, this is just a quick observation on my part so I may be totally wrong.

The 1176’s input and output transformers appear to be primarily used for ground isolation. It doesn’t appear like there would be enough current in the circuit for core saturation in either transformer (based on their physical size and experiments I have made with tranny saturation). But, all transformers do have frequency and phase response characteristics. My guess is that if the transformers do have a significant impact on the sound, then I think it would be from their frequency and phase response more than anything else.

This is a very interesting conversation!

-Frank

 

[TheBass]

I haven’t read where MXR claims they duplicated the 100% discrete transistor signal path of the 1176. So if they are basing their claim on the same response characteristics (ratio, attack and release) then they are true.

Well, they just claim "A studio classic in an MXR pedal" and are obviously suggesting the 1176, although MXR never wrote it explicitly. I am not expecting any miracles from the M87. I just wanted to know if it sounds similar to the 1176 because it is very unlikely that I will get any chance to compare.

 

[boomertech]

Well, they just claim "A studio classic in an MXR pedal" and are obviously suggesting the 1176, although MXR never wrote it explicitly. I am not expecting any miracles from the M87. I just wanted to know if it sounds similar to the 1176 because it is very unlikely that I will get any chance to compare.

If Bongo still has the MXR I am sure he will do a side-by-side comparison when he gets the 1176 from MF .

-Frank