Why isn't the Ampeg 8X10 ported?

[nls666]

Wasnt the V9 also a guitar cab

I heard the same...
V9 (SVT with reverb?) was designed as a 300 watt tube guitar amplifier with the V9 9x10" cab as intended enclosure...

the horror!

someone correct me if i'm wrong...

 

[billfitzmaurice]

WHY?? WHY??? WHY ISN'T THE 8X10 PORTED?

In the 1960s 50 watts was a large driver. The only way Ampeg could get enough power handling for the SVT head was to use eight drivers. Why a sealed box? Because they didn't know any better. Almost all bass cabs were sealed then, as the Theile/Small design parameters for ducted ports didn't exist yet. With today's drivers and technology the 8x10 is an anachronism, but as long as people buy them they'll make them.

 

[i_got_a_mohawk]

because alot of people like the sound of an 8x10 better than the sound of a ported 8x10?

Is that a crime, just because not everyone is into the funky style cabs you design and some people prefer these styles

Its almost like the valve/SS argument

The answer is its preference

 

[main_sale]

A Sealed cabinet design is called and "acoustic suspension" design. They are less efficient than vented cabinets but tend to yield a rich, deep, bass with more control/clarity/definition than vented designs.

 

[Jerrold Tiers]

Some misconceptions floating about.....

Sealed isn't "wrong" nor "outdated".

Ported isn't automatically "modern" or "better".

Ported did not have to wait for A.N. Thiele to "invent" it. The design used to be called "bass reflex", and goes back a long way. Even the theory wasn't unknown, although many were done by cut and try.

What Thiele did present was the concept of "alignments", viewing the speaker as a filter which could be implemented various ways. That 'regularized" design of ported cabs, but was not necessarily "The" enabling technology for them.

Sealed cabs generally control speaker movement at lower-than-cutoff frequencies far better than ported cabinets.

Ported cabinets generally produce lower frequencies with smaller cabinets and less speaker movement than sealed.

Sealed has usually one best speaker parameter set for any size box / response spec requirement.

Ported gives some more options for a box size, and lots of options trading size and efficiency given a response spec.

Each has its place as a way to do a job.

 

[metron]

Why a sealed box? Because they didn't know any better. Almost all bass cabs were sealed then, as the Theile/Small design parameters for ducted ports didn't exist yet.

Do you really think they didnt know better? The B-15 design was obviously a bass reflex cabinet and predated the 810 by almost 10 years.

I thought there was a ported version of the 810. PR-810 something?

 

[BigMikeW]

In the 1960s 50 watts was a large driver. The only way Ampeg could get enough power handling for the SVT head was to use eight drivers. Why a sealed box? Because they didn't know any better. Almost all bass cabs were sealed then, as the Theile/Small design parameters for ducted ports didn't exist yet. With today's drivers and technology the 8x10 is an anachronism, but as long as people buy them they'll make them.

WOW! No offense, I am not an engineer, but I highly doubt they didn't know what they were doing and just happened on a concept that works to this day!

Also, your comments are beginning to paint a picture for me. First, you claim that you can build a Meyer system for 10% of the cost (impossible), then say wouldn't build it to prove your claims and NOW Ampeg were clueless and didn't know any better.

I see you sell "plans" for cabinets while Meyer actually builds their product. There is an old saying 'those who can, do. those who can't, teach". This seems to be an accurate statement based on what I have read from you.

 

[Fuzzbass]

With today's drivers and technology the 8x10 is an anachronism, but as long as people buy them they'll make them.

Again: tube amps are a similar anachronism that will never go away. And I'm not talking about uber-clean audiophile gear... I'm talking about those made to distort and color the sound. That coloration is "wrong" to an engineer or audiophile, but "right" to many musicians.

Likewise, the Ampeg sealed tweeterless box has worse fidelity and response than most modern designs... but bassists love it precisely because of that. It's why Jim Bergantino, who knows how to build a high fidelity speaker cabinet, designed improved versions of the sealed box: he showed the love to us bassists who like the vintage "lo fi" sound ("lo fi" in comparison to his HT series cabinets, anyway).

 

[BigMikeW]

Jim Bergantino, who knows how to build a high fidelity speaker cabinet, designed improved versions of the sealed box: he showed the love to us bassists who like the vintage "lo fi" sound ("lo fi" in comparison to his HT series cabinets, anyway).

Bingo. Read betwen the lines!

I have a new NV610 on the way. Gosh, I never knew Jim was just a dumb old sap who doesn't know any better when building these boxes!

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Ported did not have to wait for A.N. Thiele to "invent" it. The design used to be called "bass reflex", and goes back a long way...
What Thiele did present was the concept of "alignments", viewing the speaker as a filter which could be implemented various ways. That 'regularized" design of ported cabs, but was not necessarily "The" enabling technology for them.

Not quite. While bass reflex was certainly known prior to T/S, what was not was how the various parameters that defined the operation of drivers interacted with the cabinet. For that matter, aside from a few rudimentary parameters such as fs, there was very little quantization of how a driver actually functioned. Building a reflex cab was also pretty much a seat of the pants venture as well. Before T/S the standard method of building a reflex box was to make the port the same size as the driver, with no duct, and tune the box to the same frequency as fs via the box size, which usually meant a very large box. An Altec A7 is a good example. Sealed boxes were preferred for bass instrument cabs not because they were better but because it was the only way one could have the box small enough to be portable while containing the necessary number of drivers to handle the power. After T/S defined the relationships between driver and cabinet, and most especially the ducted port, it allowed reflex cabinets to be tuned to function optimally with a particular driver while reducing the size of the box to manageable proportions.

WOW! No offense, I am not an engineer

Obviously. I am.

'those who can, do

And what I do for a living is design speakers, quite successfully so. I don't manufacture them because I choose not to, and frankly, I don't need to.

 

[BigMikeW]

Not quite. While bass reflex was certainly known prior to T/S, what was not was how the various parameters that defined the operation of drivers interacted with the cabinet. For that matter, aside from a few rudimentary parameters such as fs, there was very little quantization of how a driver actually functioned. Building a reflex cab was also pretty much a seat of the pants venture as well. Before T/S the standard method of building a reflex box was to make the port the same size as the driver, with no duct, and tune the box to the same frequency as fs via the box size, which usually meant a very large box. An Altec A7 is a good example. Sealed boxes were preferred for bass instrument cabs not because they were better but because it was the only way one could have the box small enough to be portable while containing the necessary number of drivers to handle the power. After T/S defined the relationships between driver and cabinet, and most especially the ducted port, it allowed reflex cabinets to be tuned to function optimally with a particular driver while reducing the size of the box to manageable proportions.


Obviously. I am.

And what I do for a living is design speakers, quite successfully so. I don't manufacture them because I choose not to, and frankly, I don't need to.

HAHA Build me that Meyer system and we'll talk. Until then, it is all talk and no proof. I find it incredibly arrogant to say that Ampeg had no clue what they were doing and that YOU can build a Meyer system for 10% of the cost. To me you are all talk. I am sure you are an engineer but that doesn't make you a good one or an hones one for that matter.

I wanna see and HEAR your systems. Like I and one other person have said on here, build me a Meyer system for 10% of the cost and I will buy several.

I can only imagine how many kids and newbies on here read your stuff and just buy into it. To me, that is deceitful.

Once again, show me your "meyer" rig. You are beginning to resemble a guy on here (Name Changed) who brags about all his dad's money and all the gear he owns and yet NEVER shows any of it.

 

[metron]

Dude bring it down to a simmer. Your posts are over the top. Its just speakers.

Bill I had thought after I posted that it may be the case that the B-15 and other reflex speakers of the era were designed not necessarily using the equations and parameters similar to what you say. Was it just a guess and check kind of thing in those days? I read that after Oliver designed the B-15 and as it was beginning to be used for amplified acoustic that Hull requested more porting in the design. (As a result a rare version with an extra string bass port was built.)

Sorry if this is a bit ot...

 

[BigMikeW]

Dude bring it down to a simmer. Your posts are over the top. Its just speakers.

Let's see...

BIG CLAIMS no proof

BIG TALK no proof

more BIG CLAIMS

"I don't build stuff, you do it based on my plans for $14.95. Act now and I will double the order and throw in these fancy kitchen knives"

Bill's claims remind me far too much of the AccuSwitch situation. IMO, if you are going to boast about what you can do AND are actively selling a product, you had better damn well prove it.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Bill I had thought after I posted that it may be the case that the B-15 and other reflex speakers of the era were designed not necessarily using the equations and parameters similar to what you say. Was it just a guess and check kind of thing in those days?

While successful reflex boxes did exist, they were arrived at by trial and error, as there was no way to accurately predict the performance of any particular driver/box combination. The main obstacle to small reflex boxes was the lack of ducts. You can make a small reflex box and tune it low by using a very small port, but with any appreciable power you'll get port noise; that's why large ports were preferred, but large ports demanded large boxes. Reflex was revolutionized when it was realized that a moderately sized port with a duct would allow a small box that could be tuned low, and do so without port noise. This came hand in hand with the quantization of driver parameters, allowing one to accurately predict how a driver/box combination would work.

 

[seakamp]

I don't think theres any need to be that harsh on Bill. For the most part he comes on here and brings up good points and helps a lot of people out. He obviously has a good business and can make a mean speaker cab(read the reviews on this forum). Sure he may come across as arrogant at times but to my untrained mind(I guess your point Big Mike), he makes some good points.

I don't agree with the Ampeg bashing, or sealed cab bashing because variety is the spice of life and to each his own. We can't get into the minds of the engineers and put thoughts into their heads as to why a cab was designed in a specific way. Thankfully everything isn't for everyone but just because we don't see eye to eye doesn't mean one person is 'wrong' and another 'right'.

In regards to the Meyer issue... I followed that thread. Sure Bill made some pretty HUGE claims. How bout you just chug a bottle of salt when you take all of that in and let that be that? I dunno, I just don't see the point of blindly bashing someone when you don't even know their capabilities, business, and life's work.

Just my $0.02
Back to lurk mode...

Let's see...

BIG CLAIMS no proof

BIG TALK no proof

more BIG CLAIMS

"I don't build stuff, you do it based on my plans for $14.95. Act now and I will double the order and throw in these fancy kitchen knives"

Bill's claims remind me far too much of the AccuSwitch situation. IMO, if you are going to boast about what you can do AND are actively selling a product, you had better damn well prove it.

 

[denton57]

I find it funny that even though sealed cabs are "obsolete", the NV series seems to be the hottest cabs around. I want the 215 so bad I can almost taste it.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

I don't agree with the Ampeg bashing, or sealed cab bashing ...:

Read what I said again. I didn't bash anything, just stated the facts. Prior to T/S ducted port cabs weren't done because the techology that made it possible to easily design them didn't exist. That applied to all cabinet designers, not just those at Ampeg. As for the 8x10 concept being an anachronism, it is what it is, 1968 technology. That doesn't make it bad, just old. So is a '68 GTO. There are worse rides.

 

[GreyBeard]

The SVT classic cab has a tone that sits in a pocket above the Kick drum and below the guitar. It never gets lost in the mix

 

[Chris Breese]

Read what I said again. I didn't bash anything, just stated the facts.

There is definately an undertone there.

T/S = superior, sealed cab = inferior.

Personal preferences are OK! I think maybe knowing something about cabinet design and engineering would only take away from the euphoric experience that happens when I plug my bass into my vintage SVT and 8x10. What amazing, awesome, yet inferior tone!!!

 

[metron]

While successful reflex boxes did exist, they were arrived at by trial and error, as there was no way to accurately predict the performance of any particular driver/box combination. The main obstacle to small reflex boxes was the lack of ducts. You can make a small reflex box and tune it low by using a very small port, but with any appreciable power you'll get port noise; that's why large ports were preferred, but large ports demanded large boxes. Reflex was revolutionized when it was realized that a moderately sized port with a duct would allow a small box that could be tuned low, and do so without port noise. This came hand in hand with the quantization of driver parameters, allowing one to accurately predict how a driver/box combination would work.

Thanks for the info! When were speakers designed largely based on the parameters instead of trial and error? The 70s?

Let's see...

BIG CLAIMS no proof

BIG TALK no proof

more BIG CLAIMS

"I don't build stuff, you do it based on my plans for $14.95. Act now and I will double the order and throw in these fancy kitchen knives"

Bill's claims remind me far too much of the AccuSwitch situation. IMO, if you are going to boast about what you can do AND are actively selling a product, you had better damn well prove it.

Im not sure what you are worked up over, and it really doesnt matter. You are being rude. I chimed in because I made a point that you repeated with a bit of a rant and so I kind of feel like I started it. Who cares about Meyer speakers? I for one believe that a meyer system can be designed for a small fraction of the cost. What proof do you have that its impossible? There is no magic or diamonds in them but you can pay for them like there is if you want. And in what way do people need to prove things? While you didnt ask for it, I have an engineering degree but I dont need to show it to you for it to be real. Did the designer of the last speaker you bought need to show you his credentials before you placed your order? Its just bass dude.